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Can a genuine Christian be demonized?

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  • #31
    Here are a couple other, possible examples of Christians becoming oppressed by devils. However, I don't know that you would call it "possession":

    Matthew 18:32-35
    Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    1 Corinthians 5:3-5
    For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      Here are a couple other, possible examples of Christians becoming oppressed by devils. However, I don't know that you would call it "possession":

      Matthew 18:32-35
      Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
      What has this matter of Law to do with your point?
      1 Corinthians 5:3-5
      For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
      Yes, this understanding is pretty standard for this passage. I may be alone on this, nevertheless, just because this man is in attendance in the congregation does not mean that man was saved. And turning over the man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh is not in of itself going cause him to be saved. And that is not the same as "demonization." Salvation is still by grace through faith alone. The word translated "may be saved" is the very word translated, "might be saved" in John 3:17.

      Anyway, thank you. If you have more to comment on these two references, please do.
      Last edited by 37818; 11-06-2014, 10:47 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • #33
        What has this matter of Law to do with your point?
        It probably means that Christians will be tormented by devils if they are unforgiving.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          It probably means that Christians will be tormented by devils if they are unforgiving.
          OK. Given that understanding. I have always understood the man taken to the tormentors to be a lost person, not a Christian. Also it is my understanding, under the Law one must forgive to be forgiven and under grace we forgive because we are forgiven. ". . . forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." -- Ephesians 4:32.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            Here is the link about the author and the book.

            http://www.thomasnelson.com/the-hand...ritual-warfare
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              I'm a Catholic, we consider the Catholic Church to be The Church. I don't think there's anything Satan hates more on earth than The Church. Christian brothers and sisters outside of the Church, who have been baptised, are contrite over their sins are probably also somewhat of a target for demons. I was just preempting someone pointing out the prevelancy of demonic possessions among Catholics.

              Not that many protestants don't often seek out the help of Catholic exorcists.
              Hmm. I always assumed that the concept of demonic possession was more prevalent in Protestant Christianity. The only time I've ever heard a Catholic talk about demons or demonic possession was in movies, but then again, I guess I don't really hang out with a whole lot of Catholics anymore.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                And it is my view, that genuine Christians cannot be demonized.
                Wait... I'm confused. Earlier when you were asked if by "demonized" you meant "possessed" or "oppressed", you said "Dr Murphy holds that a Christian cannot be possessed. But can be demonized (oppressed)."

                So when you say that "it is my view, that genuine Christians cannot be demonized.", do you mean to say that you don't believe Christians can be possessed OR oppressed? Or only that Christians can't be oppressed, but that they CAN be possessed?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  Well, she would say that this distinction doesn't matter IHO. I don't have permissions to share much detail due to confidentiality reasons, but I have permission to share that one of them was an employed, ordained, Baptist Youth minister. Her firm belief due to her personal knowledge of this person, she would tell you they were definitely on fire for God, and had a personal relationship with Jesus.
                  What does IHO mean?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    The Greek for "possessed with a devil" is δαιμονιζομενον

                    The Greek for "play a harp" is κιθαριζομενον

                    One is not "possessed with a harp." It is more an interpretation than the meaning of "possessed" as apply being "demonized." Or "harpized" to really make up a word. This needs further study on my part. Strong's dictionary translates δαιμονιζομενον to be exercised by a daemon. And translates κιθαριζομενον to play on a lyre.
                    Using the root of a word to figure out the meaning of a word as its used by a particular Biblical author isn't always going to work out. Just like in English, words in ancient Biblical languages often evolved, or had only the vaguest connections to their roots. For instance, a butterfly really has nothing to do with flying butter. Michael S. Heiser devotes a whole podcast to bad Bible word study techniques, and this is one he hammers on pretty hard. He hasn't updated it in quite a while, but if you're interested, check out his The Naked Bible Podcast, especially the last 4 episodes or so.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      Three people who were arguably saved, yet demonized, include 1) Balaam, 2) King Saul, and 3) Simon Magus. Notably, they all participated in witchcraft.

                      And here is a passage that seems to indicate that a large number of believers were also engaged in witchcraft:

                      Acts 19:18-19
                      And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
                      What makes you think that Balaam or Simon Magus are arguably saved?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        So when you say that "it is my view, that genuine Christians cannot be demonized.", do you mean to say that you don't believe Christians can be possessed OR oppressed?
                        That's what his view implies, which is why I think it is wrong. As far as I can tell, the Bible does not clearly distinguish between oppression and possession.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

                          Admittedly I don't think it specifically says that Simon Magus continued his sorcery after he believed.

                          Balaam prophecied about Christ. But in retrospect, he is a bad example because I don't think the Bible says anything about him being involved with demons.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

                            Admittedly I don't think it specifically says that Simon Magus continued his sorcery after he believed.

                            Balaam prophecied about Christ. But in retrospect, he is a bad example because I don't think the Bible says anything about him being involved with demons.
                            Okay, I guess I see where you're coming from.

                            Yes, Acts 8:13 says that Simon believed also, and was baptized, but he still seemed to be extremely confused about the operation of the Holy Spirit, so it makes me wonder what exactly he believed about the Gospel. I mean, even the demons believe, but that doesn't make them saved (though one would think the act of Baptism would be a declaration of saving faith...).

                            Later we see Simon offering money to the Apostles to be taught how to lay hands on people so that they may receive the Holy Spirit.

                            Source: Acts 8:20

                            Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

                            24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            But we don't know from the scriptural record if Simon ever sincerely repented. If the early (2nd century) Church Fathers are anything to go by, he didn't. Also, there was a second century Gnostic sect called the Simonians, who claimed that Simon Magus was their founder. Some also believe that Marcion was a follower of Simon.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              What does IHO mean?
                              Since I'm relating my wife's experience, that meant - In Her Opinion.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                                Since I'm relating my wife's experience, that meant - In Her Opinion.
                                Ohhh. Got it. I thought I was done with acronyms when I got out of the military. Then text talking came into fashion. Sigh.

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