Well this is certainly an interesting way of looking at things. I do disagree with Paula Fredriksen on one thing. The word machaira can be used for both "knife" and "sword". They probably were more akin to daggers.
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Jesus Was Crucified Because Disciples Were Armed, Bible Analysis Suggests
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Jesus Was Crucified Because Disciples Were Armed, Bible Analysis Suggests
Well this is certainly an interesting way of looking at things. I do disagree with Paula Fredriksen on one thing. The word machaira can be used for both "knife" and "sword". They probably were more akin to daggers."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)Tags: None
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A 'machaira' can be a whole lot of different kinds of swords and knives, not necesarily a dagger, although that is certainly an option.
Brian Pounds had a good response:
http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...ssay-part.html
http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...snt-essay.html
I especially liked Dale Allison's response: http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...flects-on.htmlβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostA 'machaira' can be a whole lot of different kinds of swords and knives, not necesarily a dagger, although that is certainly an option.
Brian Pounds had a good response:
http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...ssay-part.html
http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...snt-essay.html
I especially liked Dale Allison's response: http://historicaljesusresearch.blogs...flects-on.html"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Isn't one standard pacifist argument that Jesus's commandment to carry swords (or whatever we want to call the weapons) was solely to provoke his arrest and execution?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIsn't one standard pacifist argument that Jesus's commandment to carry swords (or whatever we want to call the weapons) was solely to provoke his arrest and execution?"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostI am not sure. I do not know much about the pacifist argument for his arrest. Though Christ's commandment to carry swords wouldn't have provoked the Romans because it was legal for citizens to be armed.
Of interest to me is why there are so many protestant ministers coming out of American seminaries who in pursuing their "qualifications" ignore what is plainly written in scripture and pursue absolute bull excrement????
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostOf interest to me is why there are so many protestant ministers coming out of American seminaries who in pursuing their "qualifications" ignore what is plainly written in scripture and pursue absolute bull excrement????"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWhat?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI think what he means is that why make up theories about why Jesus was killed when it's told to us in the gospels? Nothing about his disciples being armed was brought up as a charge, therefore we have to disregard historical reliability of scripture and make up theories outside of scripture."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI think what he means is that why make up theories about why Jesus was killed when it's told to us in the gospels? Nothing about his disciples being armed was brought up as a charge, therefore we have to disregard historical reliability of scripture and make up theories outside of scripture.
A more interesting observation: The same fellow that drew his sword (Peter) to supposedly defend Jesus, was prone to deny Jesus when his own existence was threatened. Possibly why Jesus at one time chastised Peter saying "Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." (Mt 16:23).
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostAn interesting observation: At Mt 56:52 we learn ...βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostVery interesting indeed! My Bible is missing some 30 chapters of the gospel of Matthew!Last edited by apostoli; 10-29-2014, 10:37 AM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostOops on my part. A grand typo on my part!!!!. But if you had any Biblical sensibility (intelligence), you would have corrected me to the correct chapter for the verse I directly quoted as opposed to your desire to grandstand!!! The text is Mt 26:52, but I'd point out that in your interrogation you missed the point of Jesus' comment...and my comment.Last edited by robrecht; 10-29-2014, 10:57 AM.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostOf interest to me is why there are so many protestant ministers coming out of American seminaries who in pursuing their "qualifications" ignore what is plainly written in scripture and pursue absolute bull excrement????
I'd lay odds that most people who pursue a Religious Studies degree are not Christians, let alone aspiring ministers.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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