Quiverfull Movement

[Scrawly]

I think the woman is completely wicked. But then, I probably shouldn't even have to say that, considering she rejects Christ.

I agree. However, I wouldn't be too quick to overlook her traumatic experience in the throes of a ultra-fundy "movement".

She had no justification at all for divorce. She destroyed her family for no reason. Bravo.

Let's see here: She deconverted from the faith, she saw her life in the cult as literally insane, she wouldn't stand for being submissive in a patriarchal marriage, she wouldn't pop out anymore warriors of light nor raise them with her cultic worldview, she therefore had virtually no common ground with her husband anymore, and you wanted her to remain married?

[Darth Executor]

more biblical model, where the wife had equal input in family decisions

How is this more biblical?

[Darth Executor]

c) "So this was about political domination. The whole point of having a quiver full of babies is to … out-populate the “enemy,” … that would be all of you; and to shoot those many arrows “straight into the heart of the enemy.” And by that, we meant that our children would grow up to be leaders in all the major institutions of our society. This was our plan for taking back America for God. So the children were like arrows (which is the ammunition) in God’s holy war. So, yeah … “using children” … definitely put a great big checkmark by that one."

Sounds like a good idea with bad execution. 11 kids is excessive, especially if you're breeding for quality. Should've stuck to 3-4.

d) "When the very definition of perfect love is sacrificing your children and martyring yourself, there is no place for emotionally healthy concepts like boundaries, consent, equality, and mutuality."

What does this drivel even means? I don't even understand why consent is in there since she consented.

e) "Some Quiverfull kids are making the break, too. Growing up in a Quiverfull home means being raised by a narcissistic father and having a mother with a huge martyr complex. The kids are treated as property to be hoarded. They are isolated, coerced and manipulated, abused and deprived socially and educationally. As surrogate moms, the older daughters bear the brunt of the work: cleaning, cooking … even homeschooling and disciplining their younger siblings when the Quiverfull mothers become too worn down and burned out from perpetual pregnancy and trying to keep up with this unsustainable lifestyle

...When they finally encounter the “real world,” these kids are pissed"

Nah. Ultra-fundamentalists have extremely high retention rates.

[QuantaFille]

Darth, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or serious.

[Paprika]

Let's see here: She deconverted from the faith, she saw her life in the cult as literally insane, she wouldn't stand for being submissive in a patriarchal marriage, she wouldn't pop out anymore warriors of light nor raise them with her cultic worldview, she therefore had virtually no common ground with her husband anymore, and you wanted her to remain married?

Does "till death do us part" have no meaning to you?

[Paprika]

Darth, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or serious.

I too am interested in your answer to the question.

[Scrawly]

Does "till death do us part" have no meaning to you?

"Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace." 1Cor. 7:15.

It seems to me that if the unbelieving party separates themselves from the believing party on account of the faith, and in hatred to it, we as believers are admonished to "let them leave". Looks like there are exceptions to that "death do us part" thing. Oh, and Jesus likewise mentioned something about martial unfaithfulness being valid ground for divorce.

[Paprika]

"Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace." 1Cor. 7:15.

It seems to me that if the unbelieving party separates themselves from the believing party on account of the faith, and in hatred to it, we as believers are admonished to "let them leave".

The point was that the woman has presented no valid reason for divorce. Quite, the husband should let her leave, but that doesn't mean her leaving is justified.

Looks like there are exceptions to that "death do us part" thing. Oh, and Jesus likewise mentioned something about martial unfaithfulness being valid ground for divorce.

Please do point out the marital unfaithfulness in this incident.

[Scrawly]

The point was that the woman has presented no valid reason for divorce. Quite, the husband should let her leave, but that doesn't mean her leaving is justified.

Her reason for divorce was due to becoming an unbeliever.

Please do point out the marital unfaithfulness in this incident.

I added that to debunk the "till death do us part" statement. Divorce is valid on the grounds of martial unfaithfulness according to Jesus.

[Paprika]

Her reason for divorce was due to becoming an unbeliever and was therefore no longer obligated to the marriage covenant.

Yet, according to her account, she filed for divorce based on supposed 'abuse' by her husband and not because they no longer shared the same religious beliefs.

Her leaving is justified according to 1Cor. 7:15.

No, it is not. 1Cor. 7:15 tells the husband to let his unbelieving wife go if she wants to; that does not imply that her departure is justified.

I added that to debunk the "till death do us part" statement. Divorce is valid on the grounds of martial unfaithfulness according to Jesus.

Given that I never claimed that "till death do us part" was an absolute, your debunking fails. Was there any marital unfaithfulness?

[Scrawly]

Yet, according to her account, she filed for divorce based on supposed 'abuse' by her husband and not because they no longer shared the same religious beliefs.

Actually she interpreted Christian doctrine as abusive and looked at her relationship with Jesus as an abusive mind-trip.

No, it is not. 1Cor. 7:15 tells the husband to let his unbelieving wife go if she wants to; that does not imply that her departure is justified.

I edited that out.

Given that I never claimed that "till death do us part" was an absolute, your debunking fails.

To me, you stated it as if it was.

Was there any marital unfaithfulness?

I never said there was.

[Paprika]

Actually she interpreted Christian doctrine as abusive and looked at her relationship with Jesus as an abusive mind-trip.

This is different from your earlier "her reason for divorce was due to becoming an unbeliever and was therefore no longer obligated to the marriage covenant". Make up your mind.

I never said there was.

So tell us: what is justification for divorce besides marital unfaithfulness?

[Scrawly]

This is different from your earlier "her reason for divorce was due to becoming an unbeliever and was therefore no longer obligated to the marriage covenant". Make up your mind.

It's not different. She became an unbeliever because she interpreted her relationship with Jesus to be abusive and detrimental to her mental health. She therefore decided to leave, and according to 1Cor. 7:15 she was no longer obligated to the marriage covenant due to her departure from the faith.

So tell us: what is justification for divorce besides marital unfaithfulness?

All I was pointing out was that the statement "till death do is part" is not exactly biblical. I accomplished that.

[Paprika]

It's not different. She became an unbeliever because she interpreted her relationship with Jesus to be abusive and detrimental to her mental health. She therefore decided to leave, and according to 1Cor. 7:15 she was no longer obligated to the marriage covenant due to her departure from the faith.

All I was pointing out was that the statement "till death do is part" is not exactly biblical. I accomplished that.

Dodging again? Unsurprising.

[Scrawly]

Dodging again? Unsurprising.

*Chuckle* I'm going to sleep well today.