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Quiverfull Movement

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    Perhaps. I don't know the state of her health during those times. I feel comfortable giving her the benefit of the doubt because I don't see why she would be lying about this, do you?
    I took it as exaggeration.

    I certainly know if I was in her situation and dropped out of the cult, I would file for divorce.
    So what?

    Yet do you think it's possible she did in fact try and reach out to him?
    Again with the possibilities? It is certainly possible, but that has no bearing on the dispute: which is whether she has presented any valid grounds for divorce.

    Comment


    • #32
      I don't see how there was any abuse.

      Originally posted by The apostate woman
      I told her that I didn’t really think my husband was “technically” abusive, and in fact, I had no doubt that he truly loved me and the kids. He always put us first … he basically centered his entire life around us! We were a good Christian family. The Bible commands husbands to “love your wives as Christ loved the church.” That’s the sort of godly man I was married to. . . .

      For instance: the signs of emotional abuse include put downs, shaming, and guilt-tripping. Well, this is something my husband would never do . . . .

      Was I afraid of my husband? Not in a physical sense . . . .
      It sounds like maybe this was the reason she started hating God and her husband:

      Oh … and for those who are curious, but too polite to ask what it is like for these Quiverfull wives who are breeding like rabbits, I have a little story for you. A guy bunny meets a lady bunny in the field, and he says to her, “This won’t take long, did it?” (My kids hate it when I tell that joke. They say that it’s TMI.)
      Also, it doesn't sound like she understood the gospel, anyway:

      According to Christianity, Jesus subjected himself to torture and death, so that we could have the “free gift” of eternal life … and by “free,” he means, it’s only going to cost you everything you have and everything you are.
      Last edited by Obsidian; 09-27-2014, 02:11 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        I've read this article...and I believe she had a poor relationship with her husband. I take her statements about him with a grain of salt since I don't have his side of the story. I hadn't known a Psalm was being used for justifying having many children, so that was informative.

        I consider the Quiverfull philosophy to be like the Amish or other movements that isolate from the general population to be borderline Biblical.
        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          I consider the Quiverfull philosophy to be like the Amish or other movements that isolate from the general population to be borderline Biblical.
          Yes that's a good comparison. Although the Quiverfull movement strikes me as far more detrimental. It seems children are brought into the world as a sort of arms-race to out populate the enemy. Women therefore become little more than incubators preparing God's army for dominion over earth. The women are subjected (yes willingly, before they realize they are in a bizarre movement) to perpetual childbirth. It is an extreme form of male patriarchy - I think even Albert Mohler stated that if an able couple chooses to remain childless, well, that's tantamount to moral rebellion against God. Though I suspect even he would find the movement excessive, at least I hope so.

          Check out the gentlemen at 2:15.

          Comment


          • #35
            I can see how such a movement creates outspoken apostates and children who in all likelihood become disillusioned outcasts or ultra feminists who have an utter disdain for patriarchal Christianity.

            1 Timothy 2:15 states: "Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

            Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary states: "..by her faithfully performing her part in doing and suffering what God has assigned to her, namely, child-bearing and home duties, her sphere, as distinguished from public teaching, which is not hers, but man's (1Ti 2:11, 12). In this home sphere, not ordinarily in one of active duty for advancing the kingdom of God, which contradicts the position assigned to her by God, she will be saved on the same terms as all others, namely, by living faith.."

            This is one verse of many to justify the Quiverfull movement. The woman in the article (one of many) looked at her duty as a sacrifice for Christ. This was her interpretation of that verse (among others) and she faithfully obeyed it. She then desperately tried to claw way out once she realized she was in a cult, her life was at risk, and she was close to losing her mind.

            Now I assume many of us here on Tweb are more or less appalled at the story and walk hand-in-hand with secularism and dismiss these archaic ways of life in our modern world, but my question is, do we have the biblical justification to do so?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              I
              Now I assume many of us here on Tweb are more or less appalled at the story and walk hand-in-hand with secularism and dismiss these archaic ways of life in our modern world, but my question is, do we have the biblical justification to do so?
              While I don't have a definite judgment on parts of Scripture like 1 Timothy 2, I certainly don't think it justified to a priori impose a framework of some form of egalitarianism.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                Yes that's a good comparison. Although the Quiverfull movement strikes me as far more detrimental. It seems children are brought into the world as a sort of arms-race to out populate the enemy. Women therefore become little more than incubators preparing God's army for dominion over earth. The women are subjected (yes willingly, before they realize they are in a bizarre movement) to perpetual childbirth. It is an extreme form of male patriarchy - I think even Albert Mohler stated that if an able couple chooses to remain childless, well, that's tantamount to moral rebellion against God. Though I suspect even he would find the movement excessive, at least I hope so.
                A question: how did you come by your view of Quiverfull? Merely be reading an speech by an enemy?

                Check out the gentlemen at 2:15.
                Perhaps you could demonstrate what is wrong with what he says.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Honestly the word "Quiverfull" simply annoys me.

                  No really, if some people *wink wink* choose to adopt this lifestyle, I'm not going to stand in their way. I imagine there are many testimonies of children who are doing quite well having grown up in that context, just as there is the opposite. For me personally though, I'm rollin' with Paul and relishing the single life - though the door does remain open for that independent woman.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Honestly the word "Quiverfull" simply annoys me.

                    No really, if some people *wink wink* choose to adopt this lifestyle, I'm not going to stand in their way.


                    ...I imagine there are many testimonies of children who are doing quite well having grown up in that context, just as there is the opposite.
                    I must say you are particularly good at flipping your stance quickly, from decrying Quiverfull to your current response.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post



                      I must say you are particularly good at flipping your stance quickly, from decrying Quiverfull to your current response.
                      I think the Bible does say something about maintaining harmony in the midst of disagreements. We will have to agree to disagree here as I do in fact find the movement in its more extreme forms, exemplified in the article, highly disturbing. You apparently failed to see the disturbing nature of the woman's experience. I do imagine there are some more centered, legitimate forms of it, and if families can pull it off in a responsible, healthy, and mutually loving manner, well then OK.
                      Last edited by Scrawly; 09-28-2014, 03:46 AM.

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                      • #41
                        For those interested, 'gotquestions' actually has a well-balanced summary article on the Quiverfull/Patriarchy Movements:

                        http://www.gotquestions.org/Quiverfull-Patriarchy.html

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                          I think the Bible does say something about maintaining harmony in the midst of disagreements. We will have to agree to disagree here as I do in fact find the movement in its more extreme forms, exemplified in the article, highly disturbing. You apparently failed to see the disturbing nature of the woman's experience. I do imagine there are some more centered, legitimate forms of it, and if families can pull it off in a responsible, healthy, and mutually loving manner, well then OK.
                          Like I said earlier, most of the families that I have known who lived according to this mindset, did not take it to such extremes and they seemed to be normal, happy people. They are the ones I would say used a more biblical model, where the wife had equal input in family decisions and her opinion was valued by her husband. These families do have a lot of kids, but not so many that they had neither time nor money to go around - because they believe in being wise stewards of what God has given them. Overall they just seem to be very family-oriented, which more often than not seems to lead to homeschooling because the parents want to be involved in their children's education. And if it was dangerous for the wife to go through childbirth, they would adopt children rather than risk her life. Only the families I have known who I would classify as "extreme" would have children despite it being risky for the mother to do so.
                          I have seen the extremes and it's not pretty. I think what probably happened to the family in this article is that they didn't have a healthy relationship to begin with. It was very one-sided, by her account, and she basically had no say in anything. It would be interesting to hear his take on what happened but somehow I don't think that will happen. Being as it was based on a twisted version of Christianity, at least from her perspective, I wouldn't say that anything this couple did was biblically sound.
                          Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            For those interested, 'gotquestions' actually has a well-balanced summary article on the Quiverfull/Patriarchy Movements:

                            http://www.gotquestions.org/Quiverfull-Patriarchy.html
                            I would have to say that that article pretty much sums it up. I wouldn't lump all homeschoolers into this category, though. I plan on homeschooling any kids I have, but that has more to do with (A.) quality of education and (B.) socialisation than about keeping my children away from the influence of the world. I would homeschool even if it was mostly non-Christian families in the homeschooler's association wherever we happen to be living when our kids start school. I have noticed that these two reasons are becoming more popular among homeschool families and there are more families involved nowadays who are not even remotely close to the stereotypical "Quiverfull" family.
                            Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I think the woman is completely wicked. But then, I probably shouldn't even have to say that, considering she rejects Christ. She had no justification at all for divorce. She destroyed her family for no reason. Bravo.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                                Like I said earlier, most of the families that I have known who lived according to this mindset, did not take it to such extremes and they seemed to be normal, happy people. They are the ones I would say used a more biblical model, where the wife had equal input in family decisions and her opinion was valued by her husband. These families do have a lot of kids, but not so many that they had neither time nor money to go around - because they believe in being wise stewards of what God has given them. Overall they just seem to be very family-oriented, which more often than not seems to lead to homeschooling because the parents want to be involved in their children's education. And if it was dangerous for the wife to go through childbirth, they would adopt children rather than risk her life. Only the families I have known who I would classify as "extreme" would have children despite it being risky for the mother to do so.
                                I have seen the extremes and it's not pretty. I think what probably happened to the family in this article is that they didn't have a healthy relationship to begin with. It was very one-sided, by her account, and she basically had no say in anything. It would be interesting to hear his take on what happened but somehow I don't think that will happen. Being as it was based on a twisted version of Christianity, at least from her perspective, I wouldn't say that anything this couple did was biblically sound.
                                I agree. I think she was genuinely trying to emulate what she believed the biblical model for marriage was. She seemingly believed in countering the darkness in the world by raising up a quiverfull of future warriors for God's kingdom. Despite her failing health, she looked at it as a sacrifice for Christ. Eventually after a near nervous breakdown and rationally analyzing things with the aid of an outside perspective, she concluded Christianity was a harmful, toxic cult and wanted out.

                                I believe she went from more-or-less a clueless religious fundamentalist to an equally clueless Atheist, and of course she gets center stage at the American Atheist's gathering.

                                Comment

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