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The Extents of Faith

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  • Draco Dei
    replied
    Ugh... well already this is going much worse than I had hoped. Still that is par for the course for my life, and I'll try to work for progress rather than giving up in a huff.

    I don't have that much time tonight so I'm going to have to be incredibly brief and pick and choose which areas to respond to.

    Science requires faith in it or else it too is not believed.
    This seems a very reasonable statement to me.

    I'll even go so far as to say that I agree with it. I may be forced to revise this statement depending on how you carry forward.

    But what, if I might ask, would you say that faith in science requires accepting as unproven basics before all the rest becomes provable? For one thing that you might not tend to think of, I'd say that a certain amount of faith in one's fellow scientists is required as one can't reasonably repeat EVERY experiment so when two or three reputable people say they have reproduced a given result (preferably using similar but distinct experimental set-ups?) you have to accept that they do, in fact, have some sort of point.

    Well, can you state this in the form of one sentence question?
    Not without great mental anguish, and probably not even then. It is a personal weakness of mine. Basically, only with the greatest of reluctance should anyone ask me to simplify or sum anything up. I've probably already given it my best try by the time you ask that, and if fills me with despair to think that such efforts are for nothing.

    HOWEVER, for a shorter statement of the same thing, I will refer you to another thing I said in my initial post.
    ...oh, wait, I think this is actually technically a single sentence, even if a rather long and convoluted one. We may have lucked out...
    Crude Summary(I'm bad at summaries/topic sentences): “With basic Faith sufficient for Salvation, and perhaps a bit more to accept some additional closed-ended concepts (so not, for example, the validity of any given mortal authority in determining eternal truth or interpreting the Bible), but including the Bible itself, how much of God’s will is going to HAVE to always remain a matter of Faith until the second coming, and how much can be verified by examining our world scientifically and combining it with our ‘small faith pool’?”
    (emphasis added) <EDIT>And, as an example of how bad I am at summaries, note that it would be very easy to miss that I consider the entirety of the Bible's text to be part of "small" when it comes to morality. Small is relative. Mercury is a pretty small planet, but it is definitely larger than a blue whale, which in turn is something most people would consider "big"</EDIT>

    Quick question, and asked in a very gentle tone.....

    Where are you on the basics? For example, is there any doubt in your mind that Jesus was who He said He was, and did, indeed, rise from the dead?

    Let's start with that.
    I'd really rather not have to make such a detour, since I'm already fairly sure it won't result in anything productive right now. I'd give my Statement of Faith, maybe you'd get confused about some of the details and I'd have to explain matters. Maybe you wouldn't. If so, then maybe the explanations would work. Maybe they wouldn't. In the end, you would each either agree that I am, in fact, actually a believing Christian(true), or you would probably think I'm an utter nut-case or something(not true). Okay, so "nutcase" is a bit strong of a term, but let's just say that I doubt such a misclassification would have me in any major philosophical group.

    That being said, I think I have said Statement of Faith from the last time someone asked me that (it was by e-mail and not associated with T-web at all), somewhere and will gladly copy paste it when I have the time to hunt it up, PROVIDED everyone agrees to not get too distracted by it. It might, in fact, be a DANDY place to start, but only AFTER I'm confident that those trying to help me understand the question I'm actually asking.
    Last edited by Draco Dei; 08-26-2014, 02:37 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Quick question, and asked in a very gentle tone.....

    Where are you on the basics? For example, is there any doubt in your mind that Jesus was who He said He was, and did, indeed, rise from the dead?

    Let's start with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Draco Dei View Post
    . . . "Why does God make Faith so necessary instead of, say, having angels standing on every street corner proclaiming his existence and will or something similarly intense?"
    Faith as I use the term in general means to "believe or trust in a truth." For that matter as I use the term, it is essential to having knowledge. One cannot know what one does not believe.

    My biblical bases:
    ". . . So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . . " -- Romans 1:17. And
    ". . . thy word is truth." -- John 17:17.

    Now to the argument given for Romans 10:17, ". . . But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. . . ." --v.18. Paul cites Psalm 19, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the sky sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ." vs. 1-4. Appealing to creation itself, which God spoke into existence (Genesis 1:. . . ).

    Knowledge, its truth is the basis of faith, and it is by faith that knowledge becomes one's own.

    [It should be noted, mere belief, or faith will never make what is not true to become true.]

    So, here is the best I can do for an explanation of the question I AM asking:

    Crude Summary(I'm bad at summaries/topic sentences): “With basic Faith sufficient for Salvation, and perhaps a bit more to accept some additional closed-ended concepts (so not, for example, the validity of any given mortal authority in determining eternal truth or interpreting the Bible), but including the Bible itself, how much of God’s will is going to HAVE to always remain a matter of Faith until the second coming, and how much can be verified by examining our world scientifically and combining it with our ‘small faith pool’?”
    Science requires faith in it or else it too is not believed.

    There are three things which are not the same, nor in conflict. Faith, reason and hope. Faith is believing in a truth. Reason has to be believed in order to use it to deduce other truths form known truths. And hope is what is not yet obtained. Often faith is confused with hope. There are things which Christians believe which have not yet been obtained such as immortality, which is also called the "hope of eternal life." And for the Christian eternal life is a current possession (1 John 1:12, 13) as opposed to immortality which is yet future (Romans 8:23, 24).

    " In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ." -- Titus 1:2.




    I guess I should further clarify that the issue I'm wrestling with has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that even seeming-advanced and/or fine distinctions can't be proven from more basic principles when it comes to God's will. And I'd like to know how they came to such a conclusion... or more precisely I would like the discipleship of someone who doesn't make such a conclusion, but I'd settle for a clearly-reasoned defense of such a position.
    Well, one can find out from God by one's self. Note this claim Jesus made, ". . . If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, . . ." -- John 7:17. Re-read the gospel of John, ". . . these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " And one cannot be willing to do anything which one either does not know or does not correctly understand.

    To put this another way, faith that this or that aspect of eternal Biblical Morality is precisely X, Y, or Z (or rather "X rather than X+0.0001 or X-0.0001 or X+0.0001-0.0001i") because that is how most people think the Holy Spirit is leading them is fine with me... to begin with. Fast forward a century or two in something like a modern era and if the Christian community has not come up with potential challenges and refinements and put some real and well-documented effort into proving or dis-proving them, then I think it calls into question if those precepts are actually true. The alternative is that they are just as close as the Holy Spirit is going to get us, because expecting divine revelation of refinements we darn well should have been able to think of to raise as challenges and figure out the applicability because we were studying the world around us, asking why God wants this or that, and actively searching out the Holy Spirit's guidance and being open to both direct guidance, and (must more likely) guidance of our own slightly more mundane researches seems to me to merely be laziness of leadership. Of course, God is faithful to give us what we need, but if the leadership is not doing their job right, the Christian on the street may be left in a much more difficult situation. To use an extreme example you have the situation of the Pharisees who "tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Now I hardly think that very many Christian leaders are truly guilty of not helping others at all to lift the loads that they honestly feel God asks us to bear, but a much deeper idea of the why's and such can aid in both mental fortitude and (my favorite methodology) creative problem solving.
    Well, can you state this in the form of one sentence question?
    Now, obviously, there is thought and research going on, but when I go to someone and ask for an answer to if a "creative solution" I've come up with is, in fact, acceptable, I expect the response to be either air-tight reasoning from our shared assumptions or "huh, you are right, we don't understand this as well as we should, someone should really fix that some time.".
    Well, what do you understand it to mean, that Jesus is the Christ? What is it said that He did for us, and what is the claimed evidence that He did this? (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.)


    All of which could maybe be answered if there is an honest feeling of "Well, this is why that can never ever ever work, so of course we save ourselves the trouble and don't try." Naturally such an argument might not be able to be stated very precisely, for the very reasons of what it is trying to prove... or maybe, in God's Mercy, it could.
    How many good deeds can one do to satisfy the death of one's own soul? (Ezekiel 18:4.) God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:8; Romans 6:23).
    So, what questions can people come up with to clarify what I am trying to find out? I'd very much advise and prefer starting there rather than anyone trying to answer right off the bat.
    Please let me know if what I have given here is of any help?

    Leave a comment:


  • Draco Dei
    started a topic The Extents of Faith

    The Extents of Faith

    Disclaimer 1: I have been meaning to ask some questions on these boards for a while now, but have had a great deal of trouble working up my nerve because I've had some poor experiences trying to work with local pastors and such. Hopefully this will prove a better place for me. I'd normally build up some history of posts before going into stuff like this (and I was somewhat active in the roleplaying game area of the previous incarnation of these boards once upon a time), but I feel like I need to strike now before I lose my nerve again. Please don't look down on my request because of this.

    Disclaimer 2: I've got Asperger's Syndrome so I have a lot to say that is worth saying, but I have great difficulty making myself clear. This problem is never going to go away entirely, and I can only make progress towards being more clear in the future if people are very gentle and patient with me now. This also means that asking clarifying questions on both sides, rather than assuming the "obvious" interpretation of what is being said is going to be pretty important. Please, let us help each-other to remember this. I've been trying to do this most of my life and I STILL forget.

    Disclaimer 3: I asked in the shoutbox what area to put this question in, but they weren't 100% sure.

    In an attempt to deal with a possible confusion, I'm going to state the question by first stating a related question that I DON'T know the answer to to my satisfaction, but which I also DON'T have a high priority on getting an answer to unless it is necessary for my primary question of the moment. "Why does God make Faith so necessary instead of, say, having angels standing on every street corner proclaiming his existence and will or something similarly intense?"

    (From the shoutbox: <LostSheep>)
    I don't know the complete answer to your first question, but one reason seems to be that by God requiring faith, He is requiring trust in His character and who He is, based on His works in history and in our lives.

    So, here is the best I can do for an explanation of the question I AM asking:

    Crude Summary(I'm bad at summaries/topic sentences): “With basic Faith sufficient for Salvation, and perhaps a bit more to accept some additional closed-ended concepts (so not, for example, the validity of any given mortal authority in determining eternal truth or interpreting the Bible), but including the Bible itself, how much of God’s will is going to HAVE to always remain a matter of Faith until the second coming, and how much can be verified by examining our world scientifically and combining it with our ‘small faith pool’?”

    I guess I should further clarify that the issue I'm wrestling with has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to claim that even seeming-advanced and/or fine distinctions can't be proven from more basic principles when it comes to God's will. And I'd like to know how they came to such a conclusion... or more precisely I would like the discipleship of someone who doesn't make such a conclusion, but I'd settle for a clearly-reasoned defense of such a position.

    To put this another way, faith that this or that aspect of eternal Biblical Morality is precisely X, Y, or Z (or rather "X rather than X+0.0001 or X-0.0001 or X+0.0001-0.0001i") because that is how most people think the Holy Spirit is leading them is fine with me... to begin with. Fast forward a century or two in something like a modern era and if the Christian community has not come up with potential challenges and refinements and put some real and well-documented effort into proving or dis-proving them, then I think it calls into question if those precepts are actually true. The alternative is that they are just as close as the Holy Spirit is going to get us, because expecting divine revelation of refinements we darn well should have been able to think of to raise as challenges and figure out the applicability because we were studying the world around us, asking why God wants this or that, and actively searching out the Holy Spirit's guidance and being open to both direct guidance, and (must more likely) guidance of our own slightly more mundane researches seems to me to merely be laziness of leadership. Of course, God is faithful to give us what we need, but if the leadership is not doing their job right, the Christian on the street may be left in a much more difficult situation. To use an extreme example you have the situation of the Pharisees who "tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Now I hardly think that very many Christian leaders are truly guilty of not helping others at all to lift the loads that they honestly feel God asks us to bear, but a much deeper idea of the why's and such can aid in both mental fortitude and (my favorite methodology) creative problem solving.

    Now, obviously, there is thought and research going on, but when I go to someone and ask for an answer to if a "creative solution" I've come up with is, in fact, acceptable, I expect the response to be either air-tight reasoning from our shared assumptions or "huh, you are right, we don't understand this as well as we should, someone should really fix that some time.".

    [Sidenote]Yes, there is a specific issue that this has come up regarding in my life. No, this is not the time for me to bring it up, due to the "tender open wounds" that still exist from my previous attempts at getting meaningful answers. Nor does it happen to fall under the areas of discussion that may be openly posted on any part of T-Web unless there was a major revision of the rules that I am not aware of. In any case, I'm trying to take a step back and practice what I preach by reviewing my basic assumptions.[/Sidenote]

    All of which could maybe be answered if there is an honest feeling of "Well, this is why that can never ever ever work, so of course we save ourselves the trouble and don't try." Naturally such an argument might not be able to be stated very precisely, for the very reasons of what it is trying to prove... or maybe, in God's Mercy, it could.

    So, what questions can people come up with to clarify what I am trying to find out? I'd very much advise and prefer starting there rather than anyone trying to answer right off the bat.
    Last edited by Draco Dei; 08-25-2014, 08:00 PM.

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