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Derail thread: Is repentance necessary for salvation?

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  • #31
    1 Peter 3:21 states that antitypal water baptism now saves us.
    The only thing that it might be said "simply pictures our salvation" is the saving of Noah and family through the flood.
    saved through the water {that (nominative reflexive pronoun i.e. water) antitypal (nominative adjective) baptism (nominative) performs an action} saves (the action taken)
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #32
      If someone confesses (without deception) then he is saved. But not being baptized, or not confessing, does not imply a lack of salvation.
      Quite so - it is not implied, it is explicit.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #33
        Act 10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

        The record of events involving Cornelius show that the people received the Holy Spirit while Peter was yet preaching. That record does not state that the people were saved prior to baptism ... but it does state that Peter considered it necessary that they be baptised.
        But, assume for a moment that they were saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them. What would happen if they went on in disobedience?
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito
          it is not implied, it is explicit.
          Only for someone who doesn't understand very basic logic

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition

          Comment


          • #35
            Only for someone who doesn't understand very basic logic
            If you believe with your heart and confess with your mouth then you will be saved.

            Two conditions fulfilled = saved (maybe) ... more accurately, two or more (depending on other information being available) = saved.

            bats (believe) and cats (confess) = mammals (saved). True. Equally true: cats (confess) and bats (believe) = mammals (saved).

            Now - is it equally true that mammals (saved) = bats (believe) and cats (confess) ... maybe: it would depend on whether there are only two subsets (believe and confess) comprising the superset (saved).

            As has been demonstrated ... believe=saved doesn't imply saved=believe.

            Thankyou for the lesson in applied logic.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Act 10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

              The record of events involving Cornelius show that the people received the Holy Spirit while Peter was yet preaching. That record does not state that the people were saved prior to baptism ... but it does state that Peter considered it necessary that they be baptised.
              But, assume for a moment that they were saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them. What would happen if they went on in disobedience?
              1. How about we debate whether Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were saved when they were water baptized in the one on one debate section?
              2. If he went on in disobedience...Christians after being saved sin and sin is disobedience.

              Comment


              • #37
                If someone said, "If you eat this piece of bread and drink this cup of water you will be given a million dollars." No one in their right mind would quibble at all about it. Both the bread and the water would be gone lickety-split.

                Since this is true in obtaining money what of eternal salvation?
                Last edited by foudroyant; 08-20-2014, 12:40 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  That does not imply whatsoever that you can't get also a million dollars without doing both. That's my point. And elsewhere, Jesus specifically says that if you believe then you have eternal life. No mention of confession.

                  If you believe then you are saved.
                  If you believe and are baptized then you are saved.
                  If you believe and confess then you are saved.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    "If you eat this piece of bread and drink this cup of water you will be given a million dollars."
                    So you would eat the bread and not drink the water and still think you should get the million dollars? Very doubtful.

                    Psalm 119:160 teaches the sum of God's word is truth.
                    The sum of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. (NASB)

                    So when formulating a doctrine all the passages of the Bible should be viewed - not just some or most.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      That does not imply whatsoever that you can't get also a million dollars without doing both. That's my point.
                      both eating and drinking are to the left of "then", getting is to the right.

                      eating (2) + drinking (3) = getting (5)

                      In Foudroyant's example only two factors comprise the superset, so in fact getting (5) = eating (2) + drinking (3) is in fact true for this situation.

                      but

                      getting (5) = eating (2) is false, as is getting (5) = drinking (3)

                      Where salvation is the result

                      (believing = true) x (confessing=true) x (something else = true) x (something else = true) = salvation (1) ...

                      If anything left of the "then" is 0, the total will be 0.

                      The logical operator (n = true) returns a result of 1, (n=false) returns 0.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 08-20-2014, 01:02 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        No, you still don't get it.

                        And foudroyant's "You have to look at the whole Bible to find additions to Jesus's words" concept makes Jesus into a liar. Jesus didn't require confession for eternal life. If Jesus told people something that contradicts what foudroyant believes to be present in the rest of the Bible, then either the rest of the Bible was wrong or Jesus was wrong (or foudroyant is wrong).

                        Did Cornelius get the Holy Spirit before or after he confessed Jesus?
                        Last edited by Obsidian; 08-20-2014, 01:18 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          And foudroyant's "You have to look at the whole Bible to find additions to Jesus's words" concept makes Jesus into a liar.
                          It doesn't - the gospels don't explicitly detail every word that Jesus ever spoke.

                          Jesus didn't require confession for eternal life.
                          Didn't he? I thought he said that whoever denies him he will deny. Is there an implicit lead to the statement that confession is necessary? Jesus said that his mother and brothers are those who obey. Is a Christian his (adopted) sibling?

                          obedient = sibling therefore disobedient = ? (indeed, not bat doesn't imply not mammal) - but the founding apostles were presumably privy to further information leading to the declaration that confession was necessary. Or will you claim that the founding apostles contradicted Christ? If so, there wouldn't be much in the Bible that could be considered reliable. This is not a matter where the founding apostles declared that they were expressing their own opinions - they stated it as a fact.

                          Likewise obedience - explicit statements in the epistles equate disobedience with idolatry and declare that the disobedient have no inheritance in heaven.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 08-20-2014, 01:28 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            And foudroyant's "You have to look at the whole Bible to find additions to Jesus's words" concept makes Jesus into a liar.
                            The Lord Jesus also spoke of the Holy Spirit guiding the apostles after His Ascension. (John 16:13)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              The record of events involving Cornelius show that the people received the Holy Spirit while Peter was yet preaching. That record does not state that the people were saved prior to baptism
                              You didn't accept to debate this one on one because your assertion doesn't hold any water.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Nope - the text doesn't say they were saved. It is not a matter that can be debated.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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