Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining ďChristianĒ or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Derail thread: Is repentance necessary for salvation?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Derail thread: Is repentance necessary for salvation?

    On repentance there are common errors and false ideas among otherwise orthodox Christians.

    1) Biblical repentance precedes faith.
    * ". . . And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:15.
    * ". . . Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." -- Acts 20:21.
    * ". . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, . . . " -- Hebrews 6:1.

    2) John's gospel account and three letters do not use the terms. (Repent, repentance etc.)
    * ". . . But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." -- John 20:31.

    [John uses the terms 12 times in the book of Revelation.]

    The requirement is the faith. Without repentance one does not even come to the faith.

    ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
    ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8, 9.

    Repentance is a work.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    The NCV version of Romans 4:5 seems quite different: "But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him, who makes even evil people right in his sight. Then God accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him."
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
      The NCV version of Romans 4:5 seems quite different: "But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him, who makes even evil people right in his sight. Then God accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him."
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        The NCV version of Romans 4:5 seems quite different: "But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him, who makes even evil people right in his sight. Then God accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him."
        How do you see it to mean something different?


        "But him" "But people" One problem, "him" is masculine and singular, "people" is neuter and plural. The Greek is a definite article which happens to be masculine and singular, τω. It would have been better in a gender neutral way, to have translated it "But the person . . ." The Greek being, τω δε. But that was not done. I would not trust NCV for careful study. It is not a careful translation in this regard, based on this one point alone.
        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          . . . But I honestly find the GES to be rank heresy.
          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          Doesn't Obsidian embrace what the GES says about repentance?
          Please quote the GES and what holy scripture you think they are in denial of.

          Source: Salvation, paragraph 3

          No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from oneís sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life (Rom 4:5; Gal 2:16; Titus 3:5). This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph 2:8-9; John 4:10 ; Rev 22:17 ).

          © Copyright Original Source



          I see no problem.
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #6
            "submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith as a condition for receiving everlasting life"


            Romans 10:9-10 teaches that accepting the "Lordship" of Christ is necessary for salvation (cf. Romans 10:12). Peter preached the same in his gospel message to the Jews (Acts 2:36) and to the Gentiles (Acts 10:36).

            Comment


            • #7
              The NCV version of Romans 4:5 seems quite different: "But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him, who makes even evil people right in his sight. Then God accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him."
              Even when it is correct, commentary doesn't belong in the main text of a translation. And that lot is by no means correct.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                On repentance there are common errors and false ideas among otherwise orthodox Christians.

                1) Biblical repentance precedes faith.
                * ". . . And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:15.
                * ". . . Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." -- Acts 20:21.
                * ". . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, . . . " -- Hebrews 6:1.

                2) John's gospel account and three letters do not use the terms. (Repent, repentance etc.)
                * ". . . But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." -- John 20:31.

                [John uses the terms 12 times in the book of Revelation.]

                The requirement is the faith. Without repentance one does not even come to the faith.

                ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.
                ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8, 9.

                Repentance is a work.
                Repentance is necessary for salvation.

                Repentance is part of the gospel.
                1. Solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21, NASB)
                2. God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent (Acts 17:30, NASB)
                TDNT: According to Ac. the heart of the apostolic mission is the message of metanoia (2:38; 3:19: metanoesate...kai -> epistrepsate, 5:31; 8:22; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). Hb. 6:1 numbers the teaching about metanoia among the basic articles of the primitive Christian catechism (4:1003-1004, metanoew, Behm).

                2. Forgiveness of sins requires a "turning".
                To open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (Acts 26:18, NASB)
                but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. (Acts 26:20, NASB)
                Mounce: An accurate understanding of the use of metanoew and metanoia in the NT is essential to grasp the gospel message, because it does not allow someone to obtain salvation simply by intellectually believing that Jesus is the Son of God without repenting of sins and turning to live for him (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Repent, Repentance, page 581).

                The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)

                Comment


                • #9
                  "But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him, who makes even evil people right in his sight. Then God accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him."
                  Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

                  The NCV provides an interpretation that can be derived from Romans 4:5 - provided of course that we ignore its surrounding context.
                  Romans 4 compares those who are born under the law as God's chosen people with those who are God's chosen people through faith, and Romans 4:5 has no impact on what can or cannot be done with regard to the broader application of law. The intent of the passage is clear.
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My position, which the GES used to adopt before it more recently switched over to 37818's view, is that repentance just means to "change," and in context, is usually referring to a change of beliefs rather than a change of works. I disagree with foudroyant's assertion that repentance is a core part of the gospel, because it is possible to simply teach someone the correct beliefs without emphasizing the need to change from false beliefs. The word "repent" can sometimes be superfluous. However, in a technical sense a change of beliefs will always be required. For example, someone who is a Muslim cannot feasibly both believe Muhammed's religion and also believe in Jesus. So a change is required. But people get so confused about the word repentance that I sometimes think it is better not to deal with it.

                    To answer the original question, if someone advocates a false gospel I would be hesitant about accepting anything else the person says.
                    Last edited by Obsidian; 08-18-2014, 11:30 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If one's set of beliefs was formerly not what a Christian should have but after a moment is now different and what a Christian should have, that is repentance (change). To accept God's grace when formerly one was a nonbeliever, then repentance would have occurred already.
                      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                      [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        Repentance is necessary for salvation.
                        In the sense one must leave non-belief in order to believe. It is the believing the gospel which is necessary for salvation.
                        Repentance is part of the gospel.
                        No. Not at all. But without "repentance" one is not going to believe the gospel. Jesus so stated, ". . . repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15. Repentance, a change of mind or change of view is necessary to go from non-belief to belief.
                        1. Solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21, NASB)
                        Case in point. Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance precedes faith.
                        2. God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent (Acts 17:30, NASB)
                        TDNT: According to Ac. the heart of the apostolic mission is the message of metanoia (2:38; 3:19: metanoesate...kai -> epistrepsate, 5:31; 8:22; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). Hb. 6:1 numbers the teaching about metanoia among the basic articles of the primitive Christian catechism (4:1003-1004, metanoew, Behm).
                        2. Forgiveness of sins requires a "turning".
                        To open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. (Acts 26:18, NASB)
                        but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. (Acts 26:20, NASB)
                        Mounce: An accurate understanding of the use of metanoew and metanoia in the NT is essential to grasp the gospel message, because it does not allow someone to obtain salvation simply by intellectually believing that Jesus is the Son of God without repenting of sins and turning to live for him (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Repent, Repentance, page 581).

                        The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)
                        None of those holy scriptures are at issue. Repentance precedes faith. Without changing one's view or changing one's mind, how can one go from non-belief to belief? One cannot. Repentance has to take place in order to believe. Do you disagree?
                        Last edited by 37818; 08-18-2014, 10:15 PM.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          My position, which the GES used to adopt before it more recently switched over to 37818's view, is that repentance just means to "change," and in context, is usually referring to a change of beliefs rather than a change of works. I disagree with foudroyant's assertion that repentance is a core part of the gospel, because it is possible to simply teach someone the correct beliefs without emphasizing the need to change from false beliefs. The word "repent" can sometimes be superfluous. However, in a technical sense a change of beliefs will always be required. For example, someone who is a Muslim cannot feasibly both believe Muhammed's religion and also believe in Jesus. So a change is required. But people get so confused about the word repentance that I sometimes think it is better not to deal with it.

                          To answer the original question, if someone advocates a false gospel I would be hesitant about accepting anything else the person says.
                          What is my view? Repentance, change of mind or change of view. Going from non belief to belief. One is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It is that easy. "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 5:1.

                          The gospel is the joyous news of salvation bought by Christ and shown to have been done, by Christ's bodily resurrection from the dead. (Isaiah 53:6, 10, 12, Romans 1:4, Romans 5:8, Romans 4:25, 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4, etc.)
                          Last edited by 37818; 08-18-2014, 10:29 PM.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wrote "repentance is part of the gospel." To this you wrote...

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            No. Not at all. But without "repentance" one is not going to believe the gospel.
                            If one is not going to believe the gospel without repentance then how is repentance not part of it?
                            I'm not sure of the exact order - I think it is splitting hairs.

                            The Bible also teaches confession is necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9-10).
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 08-18-2014, 11:25 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by foudroyant
                              The Bible also teaches confession is necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9-10).
                              That's incorrect. It teaches that belief plus confession is sufficient for salvation. There is a difference

                              If one is not going to believe the gospel without repentance then how is repentance not part of it?
                              Because if you teach someone to believe, the person will repent (change beliefs) regardless of whether you teach the person to repent.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Ana Dragule, 11-13-2020, 01:47 AM
                              2 responses
                              33 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post seanD
                              by seanD
                               
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 11-11-2020, 03:18 PM
                              5 responses
                              51 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post Christian3  
                              Started by mossrose, 11-08-2020, 03:50 PM
                              1 response
                              29 views
                              5 likes
                              Last Post Sparko
                              by Sparko
                               
                              Started by Faber, 11-06-2020, 11:51 AM
                              1 response
                              5 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Faber
                              by Faber
                               
                              Started by mossrose, 11-01-2020, 04:09 PM
                              4 responses
                              77 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post mossrose  
                              Working...
                              X