God Talk

[Obsidian]

Well, as stated, I think Jesus included the gospel but miracles were definitely in view because Jesus had just finished mentioning His miracles as proof of His divinity and Messiahship.

He was simply saying that the kingdom-building which average Christians would do was a greater thing than the miracles he performed. Is that hard to accept? I don't see why it would be.

[Scrawly]

He was simply saying that the kingdom-building which average Christians would do was a greater thing than the miracles he performed. Is that hard to accept? I don't see why it would be.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (Jn. 14:11-12).

I can agree that gospel preaching/kingdom spreading is a "greater work" that the disciples will perform, however, you left out the bolded, which I think clearly has miracles in view. The notes at net.bible.org comment on the above verses:

"Miraculous deeds/works is most likely a reference to the miraculous signs Jesus had performed, which he viewed as a manifestation of the mighty acts of God. Those he performed in the presence of the disciples served as a basis for faith (although a secondary basis to their personal relationship to him; see the following verse). In the context of a proof or basis for belief, Jesus is referring to the miraculous deeds (signs) he has performed in the presence of the disciples."

[phat8594]

I think we might have covered this before, but can I ask you again specifically what miracles you have witnessed? What were the top 3 supernatural manifestations that really struck you as supernatural?

On another note, my fear of those who denigrate modern society and push for a more miraculous life of faith goes something like this:

Not-so-miracle-minded Christian: Cancer is such a terrible disease that is ravaging humanity we must find a cure.

Miracle-minded Christian: Indeed, but as you know our great Lord and God is the Great Physician and He surely can cure cancer

Not-so-miracle-minded Christian: Yes, that's true, but I think God wants us to be practical and solve natural problems with natural solutions, after all, this is essentially the mentality that erected hospitals, scientific advancements, and technology

Miracle-minded Christian: Well, those things can and do inhibit the workings of our Great God because we are taking things into our own hands instead of getting on our knees and crying out to our Father and asking for divine intervention. If we would stop trying to control everything and futilely attempt to create heaven on earth and instead take all that time and energy and invest it into prayer, well, we would see our God work wonders as He did in times of old!

Not-so-miracle-minded Christian: ...Yikes, I would hate to see what our society would look like if everyone held to your worldview...Look, I believe God can work miracles but it doesn't seem to be his main modus operandi. I think God wants us to use our God-given human ingenuity to make this world a better place.

Miracle-minded Christian No, you are being influenced by secularism. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports your liberal view of things.

How would you respond here?

I have seen multiple people healed...but I think the ones that really stuck out to me the most were the manifestations and casting out of demons. I still remember vividly the face of one person contorting in the most unnatural way, then the demon throwing the man on the ground and causing him great pain. Then witnessing the casting out was nothing short of amazing.

In another instance the girl who was having a demon cast out was actually being levitated off the ground by the demon -- I mean, I never really thought that this stuff still happens...but it does.


As for the miracle minded versus non-miracle minded, I think that comes from extremes. Surely medicine is a great thing, and the pursuit of cures for diseases, IMO, is a good thing...as is feeding of the poor, binding the broken, etc.

I mean, what would you say to someone who refused to put on a band-aid, because they wanted God to heal the cut? Wouldn't you think that person is extreme, or crazy? Medicine and miracles are not opposed to each other. They are just different means to the same end...and the end (the healing of a person) is a Godly pursuit, IMO. Plus, God has given us material things to take care of material problems. The person who doesn't use what they have been given (both natural and spiritual) to do the works of God, is clearly not being the best steward of what they have been given.

I hope that clarifies...

[Scrawly]

I have seen multiple people healed...but I think the ones that really stuck out to me the most were the manifestations and casting out of demons. I still remember vividly the face of one person contorting in the most unnatural way, then the demon throwing the man on the ground and causing him great pain. Then witnessing the casting out was nothing short of amazing.

In another instance the girl who was having a demon cast out was actually being levitated off the ground by the demon -- I mean, I never really thought that this stuff still happens...but it does.


As for the miracle minded versus non-miracle minded, I think that comes from extremes. Surely medicine is a great thing, and the pursuit of cures for diseases, IMO, is a good thing...as is feeding of the poor, binding the broken, etc.

I mean, what would you say to someone who refused to put on a band-aid, because they wanted God to heal the cut? Wouldn't you think that person is extreme, or crazy? Medicine and miracles are not opposed to each other. They are just different means to the same end...and the end (the healing of a person) is a Godly pursuit, IMO. Plus, God has given us material things to take care of material problems. The person who doesn't use what they have been given (both natural and spiritual) to do the works of God, is clearly not being the best steward of what they have been given.

I hope that clarifies...

Wow a levitation? How high was she off the ground? Give me all the details please. Did you see anything "come out" of the demon possessed or was there just a sudden relaxation and peace that overtook the individual? Also how did the demon possessed receive an exorcism - did they come up to the Pastor or whoever and say "Um, hey, I think I may have a demon, let me explain.." or were there demonic manifestations during worship/sermon, etc.?

[phat8594]

Wow a levitation? How high was she off the ground? Give me all the details please. Did you see anything "come out" of the demon possessed or was there just a sudden relaxation and peace that overtook the individual? Also how did the demon possessed receive an exorcism - did they come up to the Pastor or whoever and say "Um, hey, I think I may have a demon, let me explain.." or were there demonic manifestations during worship/sermon, etc.?

She was probably about a foot off the ground give or take...kinda relaxed on the ground after being exorcised -- and it was actually during a time with a visiting pastor who deals a lot with deliverance and exorcism -- all I know is that she came forward with others (there was an altar call for it) while everyone else worshipped -- so people weren't really 'sight seeing' so much, but you could definitely notice it when you looked over. I remember finding out that she had tried to kill herself the week before -- she knew she needed help, and the pastor did his thing through the ministry & enabling of the Holy Spirit. (I wasn't INTENTLY watching -- so I don't know if anything 'came out')

Now as for other people, I know people who have seen demon possession in slithering like a snake, bodily mutations, etc. (this is mostly seen in places like South / Central America, Southeast Asia) [& sometimes people have witnessed things come out, other times not]

I also remember our guide during a mission trip warn us that 'this particular type of school is common to have demon possession' and that he 'just wanted to warn us so that we don't freak out...because it really scared the last American, and the American didn't know what to do so it distracted from the gospel'. Apparently a little girl (like 5 or 6) manifested right in front of the American and started talking in a very deep man's voice. (needless to say, this was before I saw all the other stuff, and I got a little freaked out -- lets just say I was literally praying for hours before we went to those schools to present the gospel)

[Thoughtful Monk]

I too have spoken with a woman, a science teacher - nice lady, head on straight etc. and she told me she heard the audible voice of God. She stated it was not a still, small voice but a powerful voice. I forgot what He told her, if it was in fact God. Anyhow, I'm interested in what your audible God-hearers heard Him say. Do tell.

I honestly can't remember now. The sense of the message was he asked God what church to attend and God said "a Christian church." He certainly like your friend - head on straight.

[Scrawly]

She was probably about a foot off the ground give or take...kinda relaxed on the ground after being exorcised -- and it was actually during a time with a visiting pastor who deals a lot with deliverance and exorcism -- all I know is that she came forward with others (there was an altar call for it) while everyone else worshipped -- so people weren't really 'sight seeing' so much, but you could definitely notice it when you looked over. I remember finding out that she had tried to kill herself the week before -- she knew she needed help, and the pastor did his thing through the ministry & enabling of the Holy Spirit. (I wasn't INTENTLY watching -- so I don't know if anything 'came out')

Now as for other people, I know people who have seen demon possession in slithering like a snake, bodily mutations, etc. (this is mostly seen in places like South / Central America, Southeast Asia) [& sometimes people have witnessed things come out, other times not]

I also remember our guide during a mission trip warn us that 'this particular type of school is common to have demon possession' and that he 'just wanted to warn us so that we don't freak out...because it really scared the last American, and the American didn't know what to do so it distracted from the gospel'. Apparently a little girl (like 5 or 6) manifested right in front of the American and started talking in a very deep man's voice. (needless to say, this was before I saw all the other stuff, and I got a little freaked out -- lets just say I was literally praying for hours before we went to those schools to present the gospel)

Wow, did anyone take camera footage of the levitation? I understand it was during worship, and obviously footage could be doctored so the purpose wouldn't necessarily be to convince skeptics, but it's something that doesn't happen everyday so I imagine someone recorded it?

[Obsidian]

Honestly I don't believe that God would be behind some of this stuff. God told someone, "A Christian church"? That's kinda lame. You don't think he could be more specific? All churches are not created equal.

[phat8594]

Wow, did anyone take camera footage of the levitation? I understand it was during worship, and obviously footage could be doctored so the purpose wouldn't necessarily be to convince skeptics, but it's something that doesn't happen everyday so I imagine someone recorded it?

I don't know anyone that recorded it. To be honest, recording something like that is somewhat out of the spirit of the moment - the spirit of the moment being setting someone free from demonic oppression as opposed to creating a spectacle - I think once we make it a spectacle we miss the heart of God, which is bringing people freedom and joy through the power of the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ.

As for skeptics, I have found that there are some who, no matter what miracles or signs they see (or hear about), will still decide to be skeptical and not believe - no amount of proof will ever be enough. It's somewhat like the religious leaders during Jesus' day who, although witnessing signs, wonders, and miracles still refused to believe.


Here is a good set of books for those curious about miracles: http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credi...ehner+miracles

[Scrawly]

I don't know anyone that recorded it. To be honest, recording something like that is somewhat out of the spirit of the moment - the spirit of the moment being setting someone free from demonic oppression as opposed to creating a spectacle - I think once we make it a spectacle we miss the heart of God, which is bringing people freedom and joy through the power of the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ.

As for skeptics, I have found that there are some who, no matter what miracles or signs they see (or hear about), will still decide to be skeptical and not believe - no amount of proof will ever be enough. It's somewhat like the religious leaders during Jesus' day who, although witnessing signs, wonders, and miracles still refused to believe.


Here is a good set of books for those curious about miracles: http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credi...ehner+miracles

That's too bad because I think it would be reasonable to assume not everyone that goes to church is born again, so it's a shame not even those who have yet to be born again didn't whip out a camera. Though I think even someone who is born again can see the value of recording a miraculous, supernatural event such as that and if I was there I would probably be taking out my cellphone whilst simultaneously worshipping.