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Should Christians use other miracles to convert others?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    Don't be disingenuous about evangelization. Unless you yourself can offer a compelling explanation for why miracles happen outside of what you perceive as THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, your rhetorical ethos goes down the tubes.
    "disingenuous" about "evangelization"? I think you're putting severe limits on the power of the Holy Spirit. I've seen a stumbling stuttering teenage girl lead a grown woman to a saving knowledge of Christ -- the Holy Spirit was in it.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      Don't be disingenuous about evangelization. Unless you yourself can offer a compelling explanation for why miracles happen outside of what you perceive as THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, your rhetorical ethos goes down the tubes.
      Where the hell did I say that I believe the Catholic Church is the one true church?
      I just thought other miracles could help as well. It just happened to come from a CC member. Although I will admit that I have some interest in Catholicism.
      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
      Sir James Jeans

      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
      Sir Isaac Newton

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        Where the hell did I say that I believe the Catholic Church is the one true church?
        I just thought other miracles could help as well. It just happened to come from a CC member. Although I will admit that I have some interest in Catholicism.
        You're misreading me. If the RCC is irredeemably unorthodox from your point of view, it makes little sense to appeal to a miracle that points not just toward God, but Catholicism. If you seem willing to ignore the full implications of the evidence, your audience may ignore its basic implications. This doesn't necessarily require an ecclesiology so much as a theology of miracles.
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          "disingenuous" about "evangelization"? I think you're putting severe limits on the power of the Holy Spirit. I've seen a stumbling stuttering teenage girl lead a grown woman to a saving knowledge of Christ -- the Holy Spirit was in it.
          The Holy Spirit does what He wills, but we would still do well not to deliberately put unnecessary stumbling blocks in front of others, and being disingenuous does precisely that.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            The Holy Spirit does what He wills, but we would still do well not to deliberately put unnecessary stumbling blocks in front of others, and being disingenuous does precisely that.
            You have yet to make your case for the disingenuosishness. Merely stating that it is doesn't make it so.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              You're misreading me. If the RCC is irredeemably unorthodox from your point of view, it makes little sense to appeal to a miracle that points not just toward God, but Catholicism. If you seem willing to ignore the full implications of the evidence, your audience may ignore its basic implications. This doesn't necessarily require an ecclesiology so much as a theology of miracles.
              Question: Where did I ever say that they are irredeemably unorthodox? I might find some doctrines strange but certainly not that.
              -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
              Sir James Jeans

              -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
              Sir Isaac Newton

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I catch flack for this, but I believe it ultimately comes down to the power of the Holy Spirit who draws, convinces, convicts and leads a sinner to repentance.
                Indubitably.
                I guess I'm old fashioned -- just preach Jesus, Him crucified, buried and risen again, and give a consistent testimony. But, of course, there's always somebody "looking for a sign".
                People "looking for a sign" are likely to explain away any sign given. That's not to say God doesn't use miracles, however. I know of two people (at another church in my diocese) who converted after being miraculously healed (a Muslim and Wiccan, respectively). I don't think miracles should be played down, but OTOH I don't think that they should be made to bear the brunt of what is offered.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                  Question: Where did I ever say that they are irredeemably unorthodox? I might find some doctrines strange but certainly not that.
                  You didn't. It's beside the point, anyway.
                  Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    You have yet to make your case for the disingenuosishness. Merely stating that it is doesn't make it so.
                    To tell someone else "you should take this miracle seriously" when one evidently has not done so oneself is hardly the height of integrity.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                      To tell someone else "you should take this miracle seriously" when one evidently has not done so oneself is hardly the height of integrity.
                      Eh I said it was a strong case. After some more looking into it, if I find it good, then I will use it. Better?
                      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                      Sir James Jeans

                      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                      Sir Isaac Newton

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                        Eh I said it was a strong case. After some more looking into it, if I find it good, then I will use it. Better?
                        What is your theology of the miraculous? Why does God allow these particular things to happen?
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          What is your theology of the miraculous? Why does God allow these particular things to happen?
                          To show that he still exists and still works in the world.
                          -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                          Sir James Jeans

                          -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                          Sir Isaac Newton

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                            To show that he still exists and still works in the world.
                            Are miracles primarily for the doubting, then?
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I googled "disingenuous." "Typically by pretending that one knows less about something than [he] really does." Nah, I aint pretending, no siree.
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I catch flack for this, but I believe it ultimately comes down to the power of the Holy Spirit who draws, convinces, convicts and leads a sinner to repentance.

                                I guess I'm old fashioned -- just preach Jesus, Him crucified, buried and risen again, and give a consistent testimony. But, of course, there's always somebody "looking for a sign".
                                Amen.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                                Comment

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