Jewish law, halakhah, means "go" or "walk."

[DesertBerean]

Moderated By: DesertBerean

Since the topic is "has the Torah been replaced by Halacha", then it is a Christian discussion. Moved to Christianity 201.

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Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

[tabibito]

Christianity 201 ... Maybe I misread the rules, but I thought Mitzi (the OP) would be prevented from using this forum..

[Bill the Cat]

Christianity 201 ... Maybe I misread the rules, but I thought Mitzi (the OP) would be prevented from using this forum..

Mitzi is Messianic, so she qualifies.

[mitzi]

It can be argued that the Covenant with Abraham remains - but that pre-dates the Covenant through Moses. The "Old Covenant" that is replaced with the New is the Covenant with Moses, not the Covenant with Abraham. Moreover, the Covenant with Abraham was undertaken with an individual, not with a nation.

” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

The covenant wasn't with just "one" person, Abraham - and even the Apostle Paul states this, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."…

[tabibito]

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Abraham and no other was given that promise. Isaac was only the instrument by which the promise was to be fulfilled. None of Abraham's descendents was given the promise that his own children would be beyond numbering.

The covenant with Moses: who was present (and assented)?
Likewise the covenant with David - Who was present?

[mitzi]

Mitzi is Messianic, so she qualifies.

No Bill I'm not Messianic - and I've never been to the shul. However, I'm Jewish by descent - yet, my religion is Christian. However, it doesn't bother me that you took the thread to another board. Although I feel I should have gotten a heads up. The topic isn't about "has the Torah been replaced by Halacha" because by definition: Halakha (Hebrew: הֲלָכָה, Sephardic: [halaˈχa]; also transliterated as halacha or halachah) or halocho (Ashkenazic: [haˈloχo]) is the collective body of Jewish religious laws derived from the Written and Oral Torah. The term Torah means instruction - The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ירה, which in the hif'il conjugation means "to guide/teach" (cf. Lev 10:11). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction";


These three words (teaching, doctrine and instructions) are exactly, which I feel, Jesus accomplished.

[mitzi]

Abraham and no other was given that promise. Isaac was only the instrument by which the promise was to be fulfilled. None of Abraham's descendents was given the promise that his own children would be beyond numbering.

The covenant with Moses: who was present (and assented)?
Likewise the covenant with David - Who was present?

The same God...

When David was approached by Samuel, who ordered Samuel to go to David? ....
When Abraham was approached there was no mediator - priest or prophet. Genesis, I thought, was a eye opener for many reasons to the covenant. The reason being is that in Genesis 12, The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great,and you will be a blessing.3 I will bless those who bless you,and whoever curses you I will curse;and all peoples on earthwill be blessed through you.” In Genesis 15, the Lord came to Abram in a vision, Genesis 17, "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

Each way - like every Generation, God strengthens and builds upon that someone.

[tabibito]

Each way - like every Generation, God strengthens and builds upon that someone.

Agreed.

When David was approached by Samuel, who ordered Samuel to go to David? ....

It was actually the covenant established with Nathan as mediator (2 Samuel 7:16) that I was thinking of - and which also finds its fulfilment in Christ.

[mitzi]

Agreed.



It was actually the covenant established with Nathan as mediator (2 Samuel 7:16) that I was thinking of - and which also finds its fulfilment in Christ.

Covenant established with Nathan - are you saying about the temple? Some say that it was Nathan who had the idea and pushed David into having the temple built? However, as we know Solomon built the temple even though David gave instructions - it was the prayer of Solomon that was very close to the prayers of Moses, that was inclusive of the Gentiles.

"Moreover, concerning a foreigner, who is not of Your people Israel, but has come from a far country for Your name's sake (for they will hear of Your great name and Your strong hand and Your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this temple, hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, that all peoples of the earth may know Your name and fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this temple which I have built is called by Your name."

[tabibito]

2Sa 7:16 “And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

This is the promise made to David, when Nathan told David that he was not to build the temple.

Christ was of David's line according to the flesh, and the covenant thereby fulfilled.

[Bill the Cat]

No Bill I'm not Messianic - and I've never been to the shul.

Oh... sorry.

However, I'm Jewish by descent - yet, my religion is Christian.

My best friend is also of Jewish descent, but he attends a Messianic congregation in San Antonio. Most of my understanding of Jewish customs come from him and his rabbi, whom we discuss things with regularly.

However, it doesn't bother me that you took the thread to another board. Although I feel I should have gotten a heads up.

Sorry. We typically don't notify the poster when we move a thread though, but in the future, I will remember to let you know before we make our final decision.

The topic isn't about "has the Torah been replaced by Halacha" because by definition: Halakha (Hebrew: הֲלָכָה, Sephardic: [halaˈχa]; also transliterated as halacha or halachah) or halocho (Ashkenazic: [haˈloχo]) is the collective body of Jewish religious laws derived from the Written and Oral Torah.

From what I have learned from the Rabbi, it is the set of laws that are enforced in the current "dispensation" for lack of a better term. Through halacha, certain Torah laws can be loosed, meaning their punishment is not enforced at that time, while others can be bound, meaning they are in force for those under the covenant. For instance, because the temple does not exist, the laws about the sacrifices were loosed through a halacha decree of the sages. From a Christian perspective, that's what Jesus meant by telling the Disciples that whatever they bound and loosed was bound and loosed in heaven, meaning they could decree through halacha that certain laws were no longer to be observed.

Here is some info that he gave me about the subject of halacha and binding and loosing:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...ng-and-loosing

[mitzi]

[

QUOTE=Bill the Cat;87099]Oh... sorry.

No problem. When I was growing up and being around my mother's side of the family - telling us kids that we came from Jewish lineage was not really emphasized a great deal. My thoughts were, back then, it was like any other lineage. However, over the years, I've read up on the history. Unfortunately, I came to know some of the differences but what race hasn't. The biggest impact came when I turned older and for some reason (..I really don't understand) re - reading Exodus took a focus. You know, its like reading a book for the 2nd time and for some reason certain parts of the book began to sink in or become more visible.

My best friend is also of Jewish descent, but he attends a Messianic congregation in San Antonio. Most of my understanding of Jewish customs come from him and his rabbi, whom we discuss things with regularly.

That's great! Its so nice to be able to really sit down and discuss scripture with someone, especially with a Rabbi, in order to learn more - and have a greater understanding. Next time that you sit down with the Rabbi let him know that I trying to go back to school to learn more about the country of Morocco. Right now, I'm learning about the location that my grandfather family resided - Atlas Mountain area. I was hoping to start this fall - I might have to delay it another semester.

Sorry. We typically don't notify the poster when we move a thread though, but in the future, I will remember to let you know before we make our final decision.

Thanks.

From what I have learned from the Rabbi, it is the set of laws that are enforced in the current "dispensation" for lack of a better term. Through halacha, certain Torah laws can be loosed, meaning their punishment is not enforced at that time, while others can be bound, meaning they are in force for those under the covenant. For instance, because the temple does not exist, the laws about the sacrifices were loosed through a halacha decree of the sages. From a Christian perspective, that's what Jesus meant by telling the Disciples that whatever they bound and loosed was bound and loosed in heaven, meaning they could decree through halacha that certain laws were no longer to be observed.

Here is some info that he gave me about the subject of halacha and binding and loosing:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...ng-and-loosing

True. Certain laws can't be enforced and yes, one of them is the sacrifical laws - Interesting facts: Qorbanot: Sacrifices and Offerings


Do Jews offer sacrifices today?
No. To my knowledge, no Jews today offer any kind of animal sacrifice or offerings, nor have Jews offered sacrifices since the second century C.E. I have occasionally heard rumors that there are Orthodox rabbis in Israel who practice the techniques of ritual sacrifice, so that the knowledge will not be lost. I do not know if these stories are reliable, but even if they are, this is not the same thing as offering a sacrifice, because, among other things, the intention is not there.

[mitzi]

2Sa 7:16 “And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ”

This is the promise made to David, when Nathan told David that he was not to build the temple.

Christ was of David's line according to the flesh, and the covenant thereby fulfilled.

Your not thinking of the fulfilment of the law - your thinking of the promise that was made. Again, Luke 1 brings that promise to light.


And therefore so shall you say to My servant David, Thus said Hashem of hosts, I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Yisra'el; And I was with you wherever you went, and have cut off all your enemies from your sight, and have made you a great name, like the names of the great men who are in the earth. And I have appointed a place for my people Yisra'el, and have planted them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; nor shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as formerly, From the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Yisra'el, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also Hashem tells you that He will make you a house. And when your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with such plagues as befall the sons of men; But My mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Sha'ul, whom I put away before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you; your throne shall be established forever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak to David. (II Sh'mu'el 7:1-17)

Luke 1:

He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful 55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”

Zechariah’s Song:

67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David
70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
71 salvation from our enemies
and from the hand of all who hate us—
72 to show mercy to our ancestors
and to remember his holy covenant,
73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

[tabibito]

Your not thinking of the fulfilment of the law - your thinking of the promise that was made. Again, Luke 1 brings that promise to light.

The covenant/promise/contract was fulfilled. That contract is not the same as the one that was made through Moses and with assembled Israel.

There was also a covenant/promise/contract made with Abraham which finds fulfilment with the advent of the Christ, again, it is independent of the contract with Moses.

Everything that had gone before was brought together and fulfilled - and then the New (current) contract instituted. The Old Covenant was not annulled, but having been fulfilled, it is no longer in force. A mortgage contract which, its terms having been fulfilled (i.e. paid in full) does not continue in force.


Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Two conditions will bring about the passing away of the law
1/ Heaven and Earth themselves pass away.
2/ All will have been fulfilled.

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

The covenant/promise/contract was fulfilled. That contract is not the same as the one that was made through Moses and with assembled Israel.

I didn't say that it did - what I asked was this question, In Genesis - where in scripture did it say that a deliverer would come to the Israelites to free them from the Egyptians? Here's the original text, "13. And He said to Abram, "You shall surely know that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will enslave them and oppress them, for four hundred years."

I agree - the original covenant was with Abraham and Moses freed the Israelites from the Egyptians and the law was given to them at Sinai. Also, I agree that Jesus (and in the context with scripture)"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ". However, and I might be like fingersnails on a chalk board, I don't not agree that the law was "fulfilled".

The reason being is because of the end of days - the Judgment for all - all of us, not two separate judgments - only one. Again,and as you stated, the righteous and the unrighteous will be judged. As Esdras states, "For I made the world for their sake, and when Adam transgressed my statutes, what had been made was judged.4Ezr 7:12-And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; they are few and evil, full of dangers and involved in great hardships.4Ezr 7:13- But the entrances of the greater world are broad and safe, and really yield the fruit of immortality.4Ezr 7:14- Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them. 4Ezr 7:15- But now why are you disturbed, seeing that you are to perish? And why are you moved, seeing that you are mortal?4Ezr 7:16- And why have you not considered in your mind what is to come, rather than what is now present?"
4Ezr 7:17- Then I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, behold, thou hast ordained in thy law that the righteous shall inherit these things, but that the ungodly shall perish.4Ezr 7:18- The righteous therefore can endure difficult circumstances while hoping for easier ones; but those who have done wickedly have suffered the difficult circumstances and will not see the easier ones."4Ezr 7:19- And he said to me, "You are not a better judge than God, or wiser than the Most High!4Ezr 7:20-Let many perish who are now living, rather than that the law of God which is set before them be disregarded!4Ezr 7:21- For God strictly commanded those who came into the world, when they came, what they should do to live, and what they should observe to avoid punishment.


READ:
I answered and said, "How then do we find that first Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom, and Moses for our fathers who sinned in the desert,4Ezr 7:107- and Joshua after him for Israel in the days of Achan, 4Ezr 7:108- and Samuel in the days of Saul, and David for the plague, and Solomon for those in the sanctuary,4Ezr 7:109- and Elijah for those who received the rain, and for the one who was dead, that he might live,4Ezr 7:110-and Hezekiah for the people in the days of Sennacherib, and many others prayed for many? 4Ezr 7:111- If therefore the righteous have prayed for the ungodly now, when corruption has increased and unrighteousness has multiplied, why will it not be so then as well?"4Ezr 7:112- He answered me and said, "This present world is not the end; the full glory does not abide in it; therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak.

We think that the righteous have it easy - they don't. The righteous have the burden of praying for the sinners. 2 Esdras 7:
11 When Adam transgressed my ordinances, what had been made was judged, 12 and the entrances of this world were made narrow, sorrowful, and troublesome. They are few and bad, full of dangers and involving people in great hardships. 13 The entrances of the greater world, however, are spacious and secure, and they generate the fruit of immortality. 14 If those who live don’t enter these narrow and empty places, they can’t receive the things that are in store. 15 Therefore, why are you disturbed, being corruptible, and why are you upset, being mortal? 16 Why haven’t you focused your mind on what is still to come, rather than on what is present?”

17 I answered: “Supreme Lord, you ordained in your Law that the just will inherit these things, but the impious will perish. 18 The just then can tolerate the narrow, hoping for the spacious, but those who have acted impiously endure the narrow and won’t see the spacious.”

19 He said to me: “You aren’t a higher judge than God, nor more intelligent than the Most High. 20 Better that many of those now alive should perish than that the Law of God, which is laid out before them, be disregarded. 21 God commanded those who come into the world, after they came, what they needed to do to live, and what laws they should observe to avoid punishment. 22 But they weren’t persuaded and opposed him. They filled their heads with worthless thoughts, 23 and they invented excuses for their sins. They emphatically denied that the Most High exists, and they didn’t learn his ways. 24 They despised his Law and rejected his covenants. They weren’t faithful to his statutes, and didn’t perform the works he prescribed. 25 Therefore, Ezra, empty things are for the empty and full things for the full.