How do you calm your anger........

[Cerebrum123]

Moderated By: Cerebrum123

This thread does not belong in Perissos Resources. Moving to Christianity 201 until OP Responds.

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[mossrose]

We are working on getting it moved.

[JardinPrayer]

Just popping in to say, though this is a great discussion, it belongs in another forum.

[Cerebrum123]

## I'm not from the US either, and I would not call his logic "twisted", as that article does. His is a perfectly reasonable point of view, and if people are going to contest it, they will have to show either why his reasoning is flawed as reasoning, or why, though reasonable, it is objectionable, or both. To call reasoning we don't like by a bad name is too easy, and does nothing to show what, if anything, is objectionable about it.

The idea of changing country because one dislikes what its legislators say strikes me as unChristian and selfish, as a denial of the social character of Christianity and the Church and society. People who love their country won't jump ship because they dislike its laws or people - they will stay with it, and seek to better it from within. The Church is not kept apart from the world, but is sent into its midst; not because the world is virtuous, but because it needs the Gospel. How can Christians bring the Gospel to society, or hope to make it make effective in society, if they flee from society ? Maybe God has put them in society because He wants them there.

Christ did not try to escape His countrymen - He went around doing good to them by mixing with them, by being identified with them. To save them from the curse of God, He participated in that curse by dying the accursed death of the Cross; He did not come down from it, or seek to avoid it. He can almost be said to have sought it out. This is almost the reverse of the familiar "Come out of her, My people" attitude to Christian holiness and society round about. If society is sick - and it always is, not least because Christians always are - surely our business is to stay in it and with it, while not being of it. How can we be a leaven in a society from which we are absent ?

If someone in the US thinks of leaving the US because he does not like certain social tendencies in it, he would not survive long in the UK. I wish the UK had a quarter of the Christian resources that Christians in the US seem to take for granted. There is plenty wrong in the US, but there is plenty right as well. Why is that so seldom pointed out. Whatever complaints Christians in the West may have, they have life very easy indeed compared to a great many Christians, who in some countries are scarcely permitted to live. Ask the Copts in Egypt or the Assyrians, Anglicans and Catholics in Iraq. No Christians in the US have been crucified, drowned or buried alive for refusing to apostasise.

Something is wrong when Christians throw in the towel because society is becoming deChristianised. To some extent, that is their own fault, for not correcting Fundamentalist notions that emphasise the Rapture to the extent of giving up on society. If Christians have a pessimistic view of the Church and society, and are hostile to the social gospel in all its forms, even though Christ preached the Good News of the Reign of God, which is a reign of social righteousness (among other things), they cannot really complain when society becomes ever less influenced by a Christian outlook 😧 🐱

Answer to the question: take it to the Cross.

Um, the article does state why the "logic" is "twisted". It even gives an example of it's foolishness with respect to how it would be applied in another situation. That situation being kosher/halal butcher shops. For a Jew or Muslim eating kosher/halal is very important for them to be able to practice their religion. Freedom of religion is protected in the USA, and this "logic" undermines said protection.

BTW, you're actually doing what you accuse them of doing, which is taking a way which is "too easy". Yours is a different MO though, you just dismiss someone who uses a mean term/name. You did it to me earlier, and you're doing it here again. So, before taking others to task for doing things an "easy" way, think of how you are doing things.

[Rushing Jaws]

when you see things like this.

I realize I am not an American but this entire thing about the Hobby Lobby does make me fear for Christians in the U.S.A.

Finally, a question. Do you plan to migrate if things like this keep going on (a question to Christians)?











?

## I'm not from the US either, and I would not call his logic "twisted", as that article does. His is a perfectly reasonable point of view, and if people are going to contest it, they will have to show either why his reasoning is flawed as reasoning, or why, though reasonable, it is objectionable, or both. To call reasoning we don't like by a bad name is too easy, and does nothing to show what, if anything, is objectionable about it.

The idea of changing country because one dislikes what its legislators say strikes me as unChristian and selfish, as a denial of the social character of Christianity and the Church and society. People who love their country won't jump ship because they dislike its laws or people - they will stay with it, and seek to better it from within. The Church is not kept apart from the world, but is sent into its midst; not because the world is virtuous, but because it needs the Gospel. How can Christians bring the Gospel to society, or hope to make it make effective in society, if they flee from society ? Maybe God has put them in society because He wants them there.

Christ did not try to escape His countrymen - He went around doing good to them by mixing with them, by being identified with them. To save them from the curse of God, He participated in that curse by dying the accursed death of the Cross; He did not come down from it, or seek to avoid it. He can almost be said to have sought it out. This is almost the reverse of the familiar "Come out of her, My people" attitude to Christian holiness and society round about. If society is sick - and it always is, not least because Christians always are - surely our business is to stay in it and with it, while not being of it. How can we be a leaven in a society from which we are absent ?

If someone in the US thinks of leaving the US because he does not like certain social tendencies in it, he would not survive long in the UK. I wish the UK had a quarter of the Christian resources that Christians in the US seem to take for granted. There is plenty wrong in the US, but there is plenty right as well. Why is that so seldom pointed out. Whatever complaints Christians in the West may have, they have life very easy indeed compared to a great many Christians, who in some countries are scarcely permitted to live. Ask the Copts in Egypt or the Assyrians, Anglicans and Catholics in Iraq. No Christians in the US have been crucified, drowned or buried alive for refusing to apostasise.

Something is wrong when Christians throw in the towel because society is becoming deChristianised. To some extent, that is their own fault, for not correcting Fundamentalist notions that emphasise the Rapture to the extent of giving up on society. If Christians have a pessimistic view of the Church and society, and are hostile to the social gospel in all its forms, even though Christ preached the Good News of the Reign of God, which is a reign of social righteousness (among other things), they cannot really complain when society becomes ever less influenced by a Christian outlook 😧 🐱

Answer to the question: take it to the Cross.

[Darth Executor]

Political winds come and go - and Christ warned us of persecution - but in the US we ARE the government as well as the governed. If we flee, we're fleeing our duty as citizens and besides, where would we go? The US, for all its flaws, is still the freest nation on Earth and the one with religious freedom enshrined in its foundation.

No, this is where we stand and fight - with words, love, and perseverance. If we can't win here, don't fear for us - fear for the rest of the world which has never had the deep ties to freedom that America has flowing through her veins. If freedom cannot stand here, it cannot stand anywhere.

Besides, November is just around the corner. Shumer is playing to his base at a time when the majority of the nation has moved away from that base. Thanks Chuck - grist for GOP mill only makes taking the Senate more likely. The GOP is no panacea but it will bring a lot of the Democrat program to a screeching halt.

Don't be afraid - be vigilant. That's what Scripture teaches, after all. And no nation-state - not even the US - is in control the way that God is. He's got this - His plans are not foiled by human stupidity. Whatever comes, He is still God. Job was right - though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

Freedumb caused this problem in the first place. Most people who lose dominance do so kicking and screaming. Christian conservatives gave it away on a silver platter.

[Epoetker]

That's the big secret. I'm always angry.

But seriously, proper fixation is the only true substitute for anesthesia. Anger needs to be channeled into action much more than calmed. Folk activism satisfies me...for now.

[Teallaura]

The question is whether he'd notice the hypocrisy of supporting a legally for-profit corporation whose stated goal was not profit for its own sake but the protection of the environment but condemning another corporation that wants to provide a decent standard of living for its employees, but not buy them abortifacient drugs.

Too many people have been in Congress for too long. Or maybe it's that Congress has been Congress for too long.

In a word, no. His values are correct; your morals are not. He'd never see the hypocrisy - or the stupidity - in that position.

[Spartacus]

Eh, I think Schumer does want to mandate corporate morality - just the liberal version thereof - which differs from the libertarian intent. And no, I don't think he'd mind at all if a company bought carbon credits to ease their environmental minds.

But I think you're essentially correct otherwise.

The question is whether he'd notice the hypocrisy of supporting a legally for-profit corporation whose stated goal was not profit for its own sake but the protection of the environment but condemning another corporation that wants to provide a decent standard of living for its employees, but not buy them abortifacient drugs.

Too many people have been in Congress for too long. Or maybe it's that Congress has been Congress for too long.

[Teallaura]

They want people to not hold them accountable for not integrating morality into corporate governance, now Schumer is universalizing that to every business. Apparently the only morality Schumer wants corporations to observe is precisely what the government mandates-- no more, no less.

That said, I'd be curious to know whether he'd say the same about a company that was trying to lessen its environmental impact because of some religious motivation.

Eh, I think Schumer does want to mandate corporate morality - just the liberal version thereof - which differs from the libertarian intent. And no, I don't think he'd mind at all if a company bought carbon credits to ease their environmental minds.

But I think you're essentially correct otherwise.

[Spartacus]

I'm not so certain we're the freest nation on earth any more

Name one freer. Somalia?

Vatican City, perhaps?

But trumped by the idea that the government shouldn't be telling owners how to run their business.

Granted.

[rogue06]

He's only repeating what certain libertarian elements have been saying for some time: that morality has no place in running a business.

But trumped by the idea that the government shouldn't be telling owners how to run their business.

[rogue06]

Political winds come and go - and Christ warned us of persecution - but in the US we ARE the government as well as the governed. If we flee, we're fleeing our duty as citizens and besides, where would we go? The US, for all its flaws, is still the freest nation on Earth and the one with religious freedom enshrined in its foundation.

No, this is where we stand and fight - with words, love, and perseverance. If we can't win here, don't fear for us - fear for the rest of the world which has never had the deep ties to freedom that America has flowing through her veins. If freedom cannot stand here, it cannot stand anywhere.

Besides, November is just around the corner. Shumer is playing to his base at a time when the majority of the nation has moved away from that base. Thanks Chuck - grist for GOP mill only makes taking the Senate more likely. The GOP is no panacea but it will bring a lot of the Democrat program to a screeching halt.

Don't be afraid - be vigilant. That's what Scripture teaches, after all. And no nation-state - not even the US - is in control the way that God is. He's got this - His plans are not foiled by human stupidity. Whatever comes, He is still God. Job was right - though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

I'm not so certain we're the freest nation on earth any more

[Spartacus]

Eh, basically - slight twist from their intent, I think.

They want people to not hold them accountable for not integrating morality into corporate governance, now Schumer is universalizing that to every business. Apparently the only morality Schumer wants corporations to observe is precisely what the government mandates-- no more, no less.

That said, I'd be curious to know whether he'd say the same about a company that was trying to lessen its environmental impact because of some religious motivation.

[Teallaura]

If morality has no place in running a business, would this imply taking advantage of an opportunity to circumvent laws if one believed they had a 100% chance of getting away with it?

Yep - libertarianism has a slight problem with that part. They would argue that the market tends to enforce morality - but that's only partially true, human nature being what it is...