Dark Friendships

[tabibito]

In verse 11, the Corinthians are addressed with the vocative case - I believe that sentence indicates a new topic.

As I see it - do not be unequally in yoke with unbelievers is an instruction.
for then introduces an explanation of why the instruction is being given
and in verse 15 - continuing that explanation - he says
what do believer and unbeliever have in common

and through to chapter 7:1 the topic is "keep yourself separate from what is unholy"
In chapter 6:11, Paul says - we have spoken openly, our heart is wide open, verse 13 - now you also be open. Here, a theme is launched, and in chapter 7:2 it is wrapped up, repeating what has been said in 6:13 Open your hearts to us.

[Obsidian]

I don't care what you view about the topics changing. The fact remains that a question is not a command. I can associate with someone even if I have absolutely nothing in common with that person. There's nothing morally wrong with it.

[tabibito]

Not saying there is Obsidian - it's more along the lines of a warning, not so much saying that it is wrong. There's a limit to how far two people who are not agreed can go together before one or the other has to change course. And a person's own affections can interfere in his own walk with Christ. That is not a command - it is simply similar to a law of nature.

[apostoli]

Not saying there is Obsidian - it's more along the lines of a warning, not so much saying that it is wrong. There's a limit to how far two people who are not agreed can go together before one or the other has to change course. And a person's own affections can interfere in his own walk with Christ. That is not a command - it is simply similar to a law of nature.

An interesting observation tabibito.

Last night as I was walking home I bumped into a couple of very nice young Mormons. First time I've encountered a Mormon in decades. Apparently they have established a chapel in my area. We had a chat, and their focus was on what I would agree on (Christ's atonement). Being ignorant of the finer points of Mormon teaching, on face value they said nothing I'd disagree with. So I said to them "if you are in the area again, drop by my house and I'll make you a cup of coffee!" Thats when the yoke became cracked...

[Jedidiah]

. . . "if you are in the area again, drop by my house and I'll make you a cup of coffee!" Thats when the yoke became cracked...

Yeah!

[Scrawly]

I do understand your interpretation, but I am asking how you relate your interpretation of these two verses, not in isolation, but in relation to the immediate context within this letter, and the broader context of this letter (if you think this is a single letter) and the Corinthian correspondence in general. For example, in the preceding section Paul is speaking of his ministry and asking them to open wide their hearts to him. Does he then just change the subject abruptly and start talking about Christians not having friendships with nonbelievers? Then in 2 Cor 7,2, he abruptly switches back to asking them to make room in their hearts for him and defending his ministry.

I think that is possible, because isn't abruptness in switching topics stylistically characteristic of Paul?

My interpretation tries to understand these two verses, not as two abrupt changes of topic nor as disparate letters being spliced together and edited. Given the controversy about food offered to idols and the various approaches to this topic discussed in the Corinthian correspondence, it might make more sense to conjecture that at least some of the Corinthians were accepting leadership from others that may have had a looser approach to this issue of eating food sacrificed to idols and idolatry in general. This was a huge pastoral issue in the early church and Paul seems to be sensitive to both sides and must defend his approach against the Judaizers and the men from James.

Right. I think you make good contextual points that need to be taken into consideration, however, exegetically I cannot come to any other conclusion than my stated interpretation of 2Cor. 6:14-15, even within the larger context of the letter.

[robrecht]

I think that is possible, because isn't abruptness in switching topics stylistically characteristic of Paul?

Right. I think you make good contextual points that need to be taken into consideration, however, exegetically I cannot come to any other conclusion than my stated interpretation of 2Cor. 6:14-15, even within the larger context of the letter.

I think when Paul changes the topic, he often announces what the new topic is, but here we're still trying to figure out exactly what the supposedly new topic is, ie, what does he mean when speaking about being 'yoked' with someone? But this is not merely a supposedly new topic, the exact nature of which is unclear, but subsequently he is clearly speaking about the same topic as before. Taken in isolation, an unclear topic can be presumed to be different things, marriage, friendship, partnership, ie, a business relationship. We do not want to merely read into the passage what we think the topic is, but rather understand what Paul himself was talking about, and the best indication of that is context, which presents a clear meaning for an otherwise unclear topic if taken in isolation.

[robrecht]

In verse 11, the Corinthians are addressed with the vocative case - I believe that sentence indicates a new topic.

As I see it - do not be unequally in yoke with unbelievers is an instruction.
for then introduces an explanation of why the instruction is being given
and in verse 15 - continuing that explanation - he says
what do believer and unbeliever have in common

and through to chapter 7:1 the topic is "keep yourself separate from what is unholy"
In chapter 6:11, Paul says - we have spoken openly, our heart is wide open, verse 13 - now you also be open. Here, a theme is launched, and in chapter 7:2 it is wrapped up, repeating what has been said in 6:13 Open your hearts to us.

The vocative case in Verse 11 is irrelevant to our discussion. The 2nd person plural imperative in 6,14 accords perfectly well with the plural vocative of 6,11 and the 2nd person plural address of 6,11-13. The 'gar' clause does not give an explanation of why a new topic is supposedly being introduced that is different from the preceding topic, which is the same as the following topic.

[tabibito]

The 'gar' clause does not give an explanation of why a new topic is supposedly being introduced that is different from the preceding topic.

I never said it did.

2nd person plural imperative in 6,14 accords perfectly well with the plural vocative of 6,11

Yes - Verse 14 is an instruction, as the imperative in this context would be expected to signify.

Until verse 10, the topic is about Paul and Timothy's ministry among the Corinthians, and the ups and downs of that ministry. (this may be subject to debate, admittedly).

Verse 11 switches focus from Paul and Timothy to the Corinthians:- even if the objection could be carried, "O Corinthians" definitely removes them from the subject at hand.

The instruction in verse 14 is followed by a second clause, with γαρ ("for" or "because") as the conjunction .

Why should we not be in unequal yoke? Because believer and unbeliever have nothing in common.

[robrecht]

I never said it did.

But that is the issue here.

Yes - Verse 14 is an instruction, as the imperative in this context would be expected to signify.

Until verse 10, the topic is about Paul and Timothy's ministry among the Corinthians, and the ups and downs of that ministry. (this may be subject to debate, admittedly).

Verse 11 switches focus from Paul and Timothy to the Corinthians:- even if the objection could be carried, "O Corinthians" definitely removes them from the subject at hand.

The instruction in verse 14 is followed by a second clause, with γαρ ("for" or "because") as the conjunction .

Why should we not be in unequal yoke? Because believer and unbeliever have nothing in common.

Corinthians in Verse 10 and Corinthians in Verse 11, no big switch there, the unity is Paul is defending his ministry to the Corinthians just as he continues to do in Chapter 7. Thus, I also don't think faitfhul here should only be understood being a believer, but Paul is before and afterward defending the faithfulness and integrity of his ministry. I still do not understand how your interpretation fits in with the preceding and following context. Or do you just admit that it is a completely unrelated topic, unrelated to the same topic being discussed before and after?

Are you saying that the vocative removes Paul and Timothy from the subject at hand in Verse 11? It is still about Paul and Timothy speaking to the Corinthians, their heart being open to the Corinthians, their affection for the Corinthians, which is not reciprocated by the Corinthians for them, Paul's speaking to them as children, asking the Corinthians to open wide their hearts ... to them. It is not just about the Corinthians, it is about their relationship to Paul, which is the again the topic in Chapter 7, as Paul continues to defend his ministry and implore them to be open to him.

[tabibito]

There is nothing unusual about diverging from one topic to another, loosely related but not quite the same, topic in Koine discourse. It is a common feature of Paul's writing, but not of his alone:

Peter does it in 1 Peter 3 - The topic of maintaining a good conscience and bearing injustice as a Christian in emulation of Christ's example is maintained until 3:18, verse 19 picks up Noah, swinging to baptism in verse 20, 21, Christ's ascension and position in heaven in verse 22 and back to Christian emulation of Christ in 1 Peter 4:1. And all of it done with seamless transition.

[robrecht]

There is nothing unusual about diverging from one topic to another, loosely related but not quite the same, topic in Koine discourse. It is a common feature of Paul's writing, but not of his alone:

Peter does it in 1 Peter 3 - The topic of maintaining a good conscience and bearing injustice as a Christian in emulation of Christ's example is maintained until 3:18, verse 19 picks up Noah, swinging to baptism in verse 20, 21, Christ's ascension and position in heaven in verse 22 and back to Christian emulation of Christ in 1 Peter 4:1. And all of it done with seamless transition.

No one is accusing Paul of wrong-doing, if he has in fact written a disjointed letter, but we are trying to find out, from the various contexts, what he means concretely when he tells the Corinthians not to be yoked to others, and who the others might be that he is referring to here. I think there are good clues in the immediately preceding and following context.

With respect to my previous questions:

I still do not understand how your interpretation fits in with the preceding and following context. Or do you just admit that it is a completely unrelated topic, unrelated to the same topic being discussed before and after?

Should I take your response as a tacit admission that your interpretation is completely unrelated to the preceding and following topic?

Are you saying that the vocative removes Paul and Timothy from the subject at hand in Verse 11? It is still about Paul and Timothy speaking to the Corinthians, their heart being open to the Corinthians, their affection for the Corinthians, which is not reciprocated by the Corinthians for them, Paul's speaking to them as children, asking the Corinthians to open wide their hearts ... to them. It is not just about the Corinthians, it is about their relationship to Paul, which is the again the topic in Chapter 7, as Paul continues to defend his ministry and implore them to be open to him.

Do you have a response?

[tabibito]

OK
2 Corinthians 6:1 Nominative - "We" (Paul and Timothy) Likewise at 6:3, 4, 9, 10, 11(with vocative "Corinthians" introducing a switch of sentence subject.)
2 Corinthians 6:12 Nominative - "You" Likewise at 6:13, through to
2 Corinthians 7:2 Nominative - "We" (Paul and Timothy) and going from there specifically to Paul.


2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. command
For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? Is "none" or "some" the correct answer to each of these questions? Does the writer consider that the answer is in doubt, or are facts being stated as questions, or is another explanation perhaps viable?

[robrecht]

OK
2 Corinthians 6:1 Nominative - "We" (Paul and Timothy) Likewise at 6:3, 4, 9, 10, 11(with vocative "Corinthians" introducing a switch of sentence subject.)
2 Corinthians 6:12 Nominative - "You" Likewise at 6:13, through to
2 Corinthians 7:2 Nominative - "We" (Paul and Timothy) and going from there specifically to Paul.

No, the vocative in no way indicates a change of sentence subject, but is merely a clarification of the indirect object of the sentence. The grammatcal subject of 6,11 is still the same. The vocative only indicates the people being addressed, the Corinthians, which also remains the same. If you are saying the subject is changed in the sense that the theme is changed, this has nothing to do with the grammatical vocative case, and the larger theme is the relationship of Paul's ministerial relationship to the Corinthians, and this theme does not change.

[tabibito]

No, the vocative in no way indicates a change of sentence subject, but is merely a clarification of the indirect object of the sentence. The grammatcal subject of 6,11 is still the same. The vocative only indicates the people being addressed, the Corinthians, which also remains the same. If you are saying the subject is changed in the sense that the theme is changed, this has nothing to do with the grammatical vocative case, and the larger theme is the relationship of Paul's ministerial relationship to the Corinthians, and this theme does not change.

The topic of the verses prior to verse 12 is Paul and Timothy's ministry among the Corinthians.
From verse 12 to the end of the chapter - the topic is not Paul and Timothy's ministry among the Corinthians, it is about the members of the Corinthian church collectively as the temple of God.
No part of 2 Corinthians 6:12 -18 addresses, and no part is related to, Paul and Timothy's ministry among the Corinthians in any way.