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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    ~~~~ Stranger in the Night, she's weird in daytime but she's stranger in the night ~~~~~

    We need a clef smilie. Or a whole bunch of those musical symbols. Do re mi fa sol la ti La la
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Scrawly, I would like to take back the tentative nature of my apology. My impression that these were not really serious questions is not adequate to justify my comments. I am sorry.
      No worries bro. I can see how motives in discussions of this nature can be misconstrued. I like to play devil's advocate and test the strength of positions - including my own at times.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        Nowadays, the first question I ask a stranger woman is, are you Christian? So far, I have not any date after asking that But I'll keep on asking that. What do you think?
        It's a great question to start off with. Some may just say "Yes" without really being one. So many people think they are a Christian simply because their parents are/were Christians or that they simply believe Jesus existed and/or He taught good things but as far as making any kind of commitment to Him there ain't (much of?) any.

        Depending on the circumstances I would immediately then ask them why they believe they are a Christian. This would reveal a lot. Next, might be what they thought about the Bible.
        Last edited by foudroyant; 07-09-2014, 09:51 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          Wouldn't yoke simply mean "join together"? The passage in 2Cor. might not be strictly about friendship, but it does strike me as warning against being in "close relations" with unbelievers. ...
          I think ἑτεροζυγέω (heterozugeo) is more than simply 'joined together' but more like 'joined together with another kind in work' and likely apostolic work, given Paul's midrashic interpretation of not muzzling an ox (Deuteronomy 25,4) in 1 Corinthians 9,8-12. Here, Paul may be thinking of Deuteronomy 22,10 and perhaps Leviticus 19,19 ἑτερόζυγος (heterozygos) and again using a midrashic interpretation of being yoked to an ox for apostolic ministry. See also σύζυγος (suzugos) in Philippians 4,3.* I think that's a fairly common interpretation.

          How do you interpret this passage within the immediate and broader contexts of Paul's letters to the Corinthians?

          * Cross-references furnished by Furnish loc cit.
          Last edited by robrecht; 07-10-2014, 07:58 AM.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #50
            I've been doing a lot of mowing, fence mending, cow poking, stable mucking, and brush burning, so i'm rather "dark". I'll be somebody's dark friend.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I think ἑτεροζυγέω (heterozugeo) is more than simply 'joined together' but more like 'joined together with another kind in work' and likely apostolic work, given Paul's midrashic interpretation of not muzzling an ox (Deuteronomy 25,4) in 1 Corinthians 9,8-12. Here, Paul may be thinking of Deuteronomy 22,10 and perhaps Leviticus 19,19 ἑτερόζυγος (heterozygos) and again using a midrashic interpretation of being yoked to an ox for apostolic ministry. See also σύζυγος (suzugos) in Philippians 4,3.* I think that's a fairly common interpretation.

              How do you interpret this passage within the immediate and broader contexts of Paul's letters to the Corinthians?

              * Cross-references furnished by Furnish loc cit.
              I interpret 2Cor. 6:14-15 as literally admonishing Christian's to refrain from close relationships with unbelievers. I think one of the reasons Paul wrote the letter was definitely in response to the false teachers/apostles, however, in defending his ministry he also admonished believer's not only to refrain from partnering with the false teachers, but also to refrain from close, intimate relationships with those in the dark because there simply isn't enough common ground to share at a certain depth in interpersonal relationships between those who are in the light and those who are in the dark.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                I interpret 2Cor. 6:14-15 as literally admonishing Christian's to refrain from close relationships with unbelievers. I think one of the reasons Paul wrote the letter was definitely in response to the false teachers/apostles, however, in defending his ministry he also admonished believer's not only to refrain from partnering with the false teachers, but also to refrain from close, intimate relationships with those in the dark because there simply isn't enough common ground to share at a certain depth in interpersonal relationships between those who are in the light and those who are in the dark.
                At least to me, the word "yoke" suggests something more formal.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  At least to me, the word "yoke" suggests something more formal.
                  I agree, but I think he expands the scope to include all those in the dark - "Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2Cor. 6:15).

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    I agree, but I think he expands the scope to include all those in the dark - "Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" (2Cor. 6:15).
                    There certainly is pastoral wisdom in not doing things that will lead one to be dragged back into the world, or stained by sin. But figuring out what is wise is probably a case by case basis, I suspect...
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      I interpret 2Cor. 6:14-15 as literally admonishing Christian's to refrain from close relationships with unbelievers. I think one of the reasons Paul wrote the letter was definitely in response to the false teachers/apostles, however, in defending his ministry he also admonished believer's not only to refrain from partnering with the false teachers, but also to refrain from close, intimate relationships with those in the dark because there simply isn't enough common ground to share at a certain depth in interpersonal relationships between those who are in the light and those who are in the dark.
                      Yup - relationships are the yoke, and verse 12 "constrained by your affections" defines the yoke, and "what part does a believer have with an unbeliever" shows general application rather than specific.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The questions that Paul asks are not commands. We are not bound by questions, although the questions may contain wisdom. And further, the question is specifically an explanation of the command -- i.e., the command not to join in religious work with false teachers. So interpreting the question more broadly than the command is questionable anyway.

                        As I said before, the Bible does elsewhere discourage us from befriending fools. However, I don't know that every unbeliever would necessarily qualify as a fool.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Those questions are being asked by way of providing support for an admonition. There is nothing in the immediate context to support the idea that this addresses "false teachers." Even if it had been addressing that issue, it would have been calling on broader issues to support an admonition with regard to the narrower.
                          The context for the admonition to not be unequally yokes is clearly spelt out.
                          2 Corinthians 6:11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open. 14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
                          15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

                          What is the correct answer for each of the questions ... particularly the last? Even if this was an admonition regarding the choice of spouse, or association with false teachers - the admonition relies in part for support on the fact that the believer has no part with the unbeliever. Paul has expressed what he regards as factual: the believer has nothing in common with the unbeliever.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-11-2014, 02:22 AM.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The NCV is obviously different:
                            Source: NCV 2Corinthians 6:14-17

                            You are not the same as those who do not believe. So do not join yourself to them. Good and bad do not belong together. How can Christ and Belial, the devil, have any agreement? What can a believer have together with a nonbeliever? The temple of God cannot have any agreement with idols, and we are the temple of the living God. As God said: "I will live with them and walk with them and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

                            Leave those people,
                            and be separate, says the Lord,
                            Touch nothing that is clean,
                            and I will accept you.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Last edited by Truthseeker; 07-11-2014, 11:35 AM.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              The team included people with translation experience on such accepted versions as the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, and the New King James Version.
                              New Century Version ... While the NIV and NAS Bibles are unimpressive, the NKJV is a good translation. Now - is the "NCV" a dynamic or a literal equivalent version? If it is too far toward dynamic, it is useless - all you'll get out of it is the translators' versions of what they think the original should have said.
                              So - how does the translation line up with the Koine text. (unless I am mistaken it uses the NU as its base - so that's what I'll go with)
                              2 Corinthians 6:14
                              Μὴ γίνεσθε ἑτεροζυγοῦντες ἀπίστοις· τίς γὰρ μετοχὴ δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἀνομίᾳ, ἢ τίς κοινωνία φωτὶ πρὸς σκότος;
                              not become to yoke (pres. part. act.) with different kind unbelieving what for partnership righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship light with darkness.
                              (do) not be disparately yoking with unbelievers, for what fellowship* (have) righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship (has) light with darkness.
                              * a close relation between partners, i.e. people sharing something held in common .. fellowship, partnership.

                              "You are not the same as"? ..... well - it is implicit, but it can't be said to actually translate anything in the text.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                                I interpret 2Cor. 6:14-15 as literally admonishing Christian's to refrain from close relationships with unbelievers. I think one of the reasons Paul wrote the letter was definitely in response to the false teachers/apostles, however, in defending his ministry he also admonished believer's not only to refrain from partnering with the false teachers, but also to refrain from close, intimate relationships with those in the dark because there simply isn't enough common ground to share at a certain depth in interpersonal relationships between those who are in the light and those who are in the dark.
                                I do understand your interpretation, but I am asking how you relate your interpretation of these two verses, not in isolation, but in relation to the immediate context within this letter, and the broader context of this letter (if you think this is a single letter) and the Corinthian correspondence in general. For example, in the preceding section Paul is speaking of his ministry and asking them to open wide their hearts to him. Does he then just change the subject abruptly and start talking about Christians not having friendships with nonbelievers? Then in 2 Cor 7,2, he abruptly switches back to asking them to make room in their hearts for him and defending his ministry. My interpretation tries to understand these two verses, not as two abrupt changes of topic nor as disparate letters being spliced together and edited. Given the controversy about food offered to idols and the various approaches to this topic discussed in the Corinthian correspondence, it might make more sense to conjecture that at least some of the Corinthians were accepting leadership from others that may have had a looser approach to this issue of eating food sacrificed to idols and idolatry in general. This was a huge pastoral issue in the early church and Paul seems to be sensitive to both sides and must defend his approach against the Judaizers and the men from James.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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