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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Don Carson on Hell
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Didn't Moses speak of the Lord Jesus (Deuteronomy 18:15) and didn't the Lord Jesus speak of Moses (Luke 24:44)?Last edited by foudroyant; 07-01-2014, 11:37 PM.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostDidn't Moses speak of the Lord Jesus (Deuteronomy 18:15) and didn't the Lord Jesus speak of Moses (Luke 24:44)?
Concerning Lk 24:44: specifically, in which of Moses' Ordinances is Jesus spoken of? The answer is NONE...
The lore of Moses does point to Jesus (the Memra of YHWH according to the Aramaic Targums=the Logos of God which revealed himself to Moses and exclusively communicated with Moses), but Moses' ordinances don't!!! The reality is Jesus regularly refuted Moses' ordinances. Simply read the Gospels for proof...
I do agree that Deut 18:15 is a prediction of the Christ...but note that this prediction is not part of Moses' ordinances...
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In the English language there is a difference between Lore and Law...
Lore=a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject held by a particular group.
Law=the system of rules which a particular community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members.Last edited by apostoli; 07-02-2014, 01:15 AM.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIt says law of Moses.
In the English language there is a difference between Lore and Law...
Lore=a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject held by a particular group.
Law=the system of rules which a particular community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members.
Moses' ordinances do not contain any histories, they are simply blind enactments imposed on an ignorant people (possibly why the only people I know of that observes his extremes are the Taliban).
Notice, that when A.Paul councils the Judasises, he defends his argument by appealing to the Decalogue not Moses' ordinances...(as does Jesus)...Last edited by apostoli; 07-02-2014, 10:31 AM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostIn your paradigm, the fact remains that to undergo eternal punishment, one has to have eternal life...
Wicked: Eternal living in hell
Righteous (in Christ): Eternal living in heaven
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostYes, if you are intent on defining everlasting consciousness as "eternal life", then you are correct.
Wicked: Eternal living in hell
Righteous (in Christ): Eternal living in heavenLast edited by apostoli; 07-02-2014, 10:36 AM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostHow else is one to define "eternal life". Either one has existence or not!
The idea "life" connotes "conscious existence" whether it be pleasurable or not. However, the metaphor of the lake of fire connotes destruction eg: when the chaff is thrown into the flames it becomes dust = ceases to exist as chaff...
So to recap:
1.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
2.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Eternal destruction/punishment in hell
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Eternal blessedness in heavenLast edited by Scrawly; 07-02-2014, 10:51 AM.
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostSure, the wicked and righteous both have everlasting existence.
Well, as stated earlier the Bible teaches the wicked will undergo eternal destruction. Jesus also stated in Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So to recap:
1.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
2.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Eternal destruction/punishment in hell
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Eternal blessedness in heaven
As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth...Last edited by apostoli; 07-02-2014, 11:04 AM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostThere is a crimp in your speculations. Hell suffers the same fate as those thrown into the lake of fire. ie: Hell ceases to exist...
As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth...
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostThere is a crimp in your speculations. Hell suffers the same fate as those thrown into the lake of fire. ie: Hell ceases to exist...
As for heaven, according to Revelation, the New Jerusalem (heaven) will be firmly established on the new earth..."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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It says that the beast and the false prophet are still in the fire at the end of 1000 years, suggesting that they have not been annihilated. So I don't see why it would be a symbol for annihilation.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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E. Earle Ellis points out that if this symbolism was taken completely literally, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14 which states that the devil will be destroyed. Ezekiel 28:19 also states the same. The solution to this conundrum is 1) to take the literal verses above the symbolism 2) realize that "forever and ever" can also be translated "indefinitely" (as in Deuteronomy 15:17)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostE. Earle Ellis points out that if this symbolism was taken completely literally, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14 which states that the devil will be destroyed. Ezekiel 28:19 also states the same. The solution to this conundrum is 1) to take the literal verses above the symbolism 2) realize that "forever and ever" can also be translated "indefinitely" (as in Deuteronomy 15:17).
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I also wonder about Mt. 18:8 which speaks of those who are thrown into the eternal fire. As Carson mentions in his book "the gagging of God", "one is surely entitled to ask why the fires should burn forever and the worms not die [cf. Mark 9:47-48] if their purpose comes to an end"
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