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Don Carson on Hell

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  • #16
    I would posit the theory that Judas' statement actually confirms he didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, therefore, wasn't repenting. I hold to the theory that Judas was setting up Jesus because he knew Jesus was the Messiah, but was expecting -- like most of the disciples -- that he would conquer the Roman Empire and herald in God's new Israel. By setting up Jesus, he believed he was forcing Jesus to play this messianic hand to get out of his situation (a la the people mocking Jesus to prove he's the Christ by coming down from cross). When he states that he betrayed an innocent man, he was stating that he no longer believed Jesus was the Messiah but just an ordinary man he had mistaken for the Messiah.
    Last edited by seanD; 06-26-2014, 05:21 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      God doesn't just punish people for sins committed against him. He also punishes for sins committed against others.
      Any sin is against God.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Yes, I think this idea, which has no scriptural support, implicitly opens the door for universalism because it raises the obvious question: What if one stops sinning/repents?
        For whatever reason Carson's speech is inaudible on my computer, so I don't know what his justifications are, but I presume he appealed to Daniel 12:2 which explicicity dictates that not everyone is resurrected. As "some" awake "to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" some are not resurrected at all...as the text explicity refers to the "many" not "all".

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        • #19
          Originally posted by apostoli View Post
          For whatever reason Carson's speech is inaudible on my computer, so I don't know what his justifications are, but I presume he appealed to Daniel 12:2 which explicicity dictates that not everyone is resurrected. As "some" awake "to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" some are not resurrected at all...as the text explicity refers to the "many" not "all".
          This interpretation of Daniel 12:2 seems incongruent with NT data, including Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), Revelation 20:12, and Acts 24:15 which don't seem to have any hint that the scope of the resurrection is limited. And to be honest, I don't even see any hint of a possible limited resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The use of "some" to me simply indicates that some of the people will go to A and the others will go to B.

          What translation are you using to consult Daniel 12:2, by the way?
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            This interpretation of Daniel 12:2 seems incongruent with NT data, including Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), Revelation 20:12, and Acts 24:15 which don't seem to have any hint that the scope of the resurrection is limited. And to be honest, I don't even see any hint of a possible limited resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The use of "some" to me simply indicates that some of the people will go to A and the others will go to B.

            What translation are you using to consult Daniel 12:2, by the way?
            KJV! But pick any one, they all read the same to me...

            I tend to follow Luther's perspective, so I don't accept annihilationism per se , nor do I accept universalism (in the context of everybody ever born gets eternal life), nor do I accept the extraneous idea of endless punishment...Abraham sinned, David sinned extraordinarily and even Jesus sinned in the terms of Moses' ordinances but none of them sinned in the eyes of God! So, imo, there is relativity in the argument...

            In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life! Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
              even Jesus sinned in the terms of Moses' ordinances
              Please explain.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                ...In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life!
                "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2Thes. 1:9)

                Now, how can someone suffer eternal destruction? I don't know, but what does seem clear is the fact that the unsaved will undergo torment in some form that will last for eternity. This hardly paints the picture of eternal life, which in the Bible, generally refers to a blessed state of those in Christ enjoying God in the heavenly realm, which also is eternal in it's duration.


                Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!
                Refer to the above - the bolded is your key word.
                Last edited by Scrawly; 07-01-2014, 05:45 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                  KJV! But pick any one, they all read the same to me...

                  I tend to follow Luther's perspective, so I don't accept annihilationism per se , nor do I accept universalism (in the context of everybody ever born gets eternal life), nor do I accept the extraneous idea of endless punishment...Abraham sinned, David sinned extraordinarily and even Jesus sinned in the terms of Moses' ordinances but none of them sinned in the eyes of God! So, imo, there is relativity in the argument...

                  In any case, if those that end up in the lake of fire are eternally punished, they receive eternal life! Which is contrary to the message of the NT, which states that only the faithful, the bride of Christ will receive eternal life!!!
                  A couple things:

                  My post was actually in response to your claim that not all will be resurrected at the final day. I am maintaining that the Bible is clear that everybody will be resurrected (except for those already alive).

                  Also, I consider myself an annihilationist but I do believe there is a period of torment in proportion to how much one sinned. It might even be for a long period of time.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    Please explain.
                    Read scripture. As you have done with me, Jesus was accused of blasphemy by his Moses idolatrizing opponents...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2Thes. 1:9)

                      Now, how can someone suffer eternal destruction? I don't know, but what does seem clear is the fact that the unsaved will undergo torment in some form that will last for eternity. This hardly paints the picture of eternal life, which in the Bible, generally refers to a blessed state of those in Christ enjoying God in the heavenly realm, which also is eternal in it's duration.




                      Refer to the above - the bolded is your key word.
                      In your paradigm, the fact remains that to undergo eternal punishment, one has to have eternal life...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                        Read scripture. As you have done with me, Jesus was accused of blasphemy by his Moses idolatrizing opponents...
                        Are you saying that Jesus sinned in the eyes of what they thought Moses taught or what Moses actually taught?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          A couple things:

                          My post was actually in response to your claim that not all will be resurrected at the final day.
                          I admit there is a conflict between Daniel's revelation and John's revelation. Possibly, A.John was given a deeper understanding than Daniel, Which puts into question the inspiration allocated by God, and what we are to believe as authentic. Personally, imo, Daniel's account is more realistic than A.John's stylised and questionable revelation...


                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I am maintaining that the Bible is clear that everybody will be resurrected (except for those already alive).
                          Which if we ignore Daniel is a possibility. A.John's account does provide for justice, in as much as God lets those condemned, know why are they are condemned...

                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Also, I consider myself an annihilationist but I do believe there is a period of torment in proportion to how much one sinned. It might even be for a long period of time.
                          Could be! But on review of the Ot, when God determined to punish someone, he just eliminated them on the spot!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                            Are you saying that Jesus sinned in the eyes of what they thought Moses taught or what Moses actually taught?
                            If you are referring to Moses' Ordinances then both.

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                            • #29
                              Ok thanks for answering my question.

                              I wouldn't want to believe what you do and have to face the Lord about it.

                              That would be frightening.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                This interpretation of Daniel 12:2 seems incongruent with NT data, including Matthew 25 (sheep and goats), Revelation 20:12, and Acts 24:15 which don't seem to have any hint that the scope of the resurrection is limited. And to be honest, I don't even see any hint of a possible limited resurrection in Daniel 12:2. The use of "some" to me simply indicates that some of the people will go to A and the others will go to B.
                                A ps to my earlier post...

                                At Dan 12:2 we have the revelation of two classes who are resurrected "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". But note the first clause of the text which puts a limitation on who is resurrected "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"..."many" doesn't mean "all" in anyone's language...

                                As for Mt 25. Note the virgins who had the door shut to them...

                                Acts 24:15, seems to fit Daniel 12:2 very well, and imo, is not all inclusive. Depends on how one defines the "unjust"...
                                Last edited by apostoli; 07-01-2014, 11:08 PM.

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