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The baptism with the Holy Spirit

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  • #46
    It sure is a symbol:
    Robertson: The saving by baptism in which Peter here mentions is only symbolic (a metaphor or picture as in Romans 6:2-6)
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=59&ch=3

    And the fact that no one is actually baptized here is a weak argument. You know it refers to water baptism and as such it refers to people being water baptized.
    Get real.

    Comment


    • #47
      It sure is a symbol:
      Robertson: The saving by baptism in which Peter here mentions is only symbolic (a metaphor or picture as in Romans 6:2-6)
      http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=59&ch=3
      In short Robertson doesn't want to admit that baptism really saves, so he calls it "symbolic". Romans 6:3-6 doesn't say people are "symbollically" saved - it says they are symbolically crucified and resurrected.


      And the fact that no one is actually baptized here is a weak argument. You know it refers to water baptism and as such it refers to people being water baptized.
      Get real.
      Sure it does - but you can't prove from that verse that people were still being baptised in water when that verse was written. I can make just the same claim about water-baptism that your commentators make about a specific procedure only being for the Jews. Their claims are every bit as ridiculous as mine - that is inevitable, the logic chain is identical.

      AND, you have just demonstrated that you can see just how ridiculous their argument is - when someone else uses it.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #48
        1. Romans 6:3 was already addressed in the OP in that it refers to baptism with the Holy Spirit. See the evidence there.
        2. 1 Peter 3:21 I'll cite lexicons/dictionaries while you can cite your opinion.

        Please cite your knowledge of Greek (degrees, scholarly papers, etc.) so we can compare it with those that I cite.
        Last edited by foudroyant; 07-23-2014, 06:49 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          2. 1 Peter 3:21 I'll cite lexicons/dictionaries while you can cite your opinion.
          What are you saying here? "Every lexicon and dictionary entry is inspired by God and infallible" perhaps?
          Until proven otherwise, they are in reality nothing more than the teachings of men and should be subjected to rigorous testing, and comparison with the scriptures.

          Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
          It says right there that being baptised into Christ Jesus is to have been baptised into his death.
          Baptism into Christ is NOT baptism in the Holy Spirit, sunshine, it is baptism in water.

          And to continue the ludicrous kind of eisegesis that you are promoting - how about trying to find the scripture ... anywhere ... that says anyone was ever baptised into the Holy Spirit. It can't be done.
          Last edited by tabibito; 07-23-2014, 07:12 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #50
            The words of the Bible are inspired and these words have meanings. Don't like how these words are defined? Then hey make up your own meanings. This is the same tactic cultists resort to in order to defend their heresy.
            Sad and pathetic that you resort to the same ploy as them.

            You refuted no evidence I cited in the OP concerning Romans 6:3. Great job at ignoring it and just regurgitating your baseless assertion.

            Comment


            • #51
              The words of the Bible are inspired and these words have meanings. Don't like how these words are defined? Then hey make up your own meanings. This is the same tactic cultists resort to in order to defend their heresy.
              Assuredly. So lets look at some of actual examples of the process:
              υπακουω - don't like the fact that it means "heed/obey", just change the meaning to "believe"
              πιστις - don't like the fact that in some contexts it means fidelity - just pretend that it always means "believe"
              μετανοεω - don't like the fact that it means to turn aside, just pretend it's a synonym for - "regret"
              Sad and pathetic that you resort to the same ploy as them.
              As I have already pointed out, the ploys I am resorting to are the same as those of the commentators you are so fond of. ... Have you correctly identified where those ploys are coming from, do you think?

              You refuted no evidence I cited in the OP concerning Romans 6:3. Great job at ignoring it and just regurgitating your baseless assertion.
              I'm not the one indulging in ad hominem attacks here, sunshine.

              Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
              It says right there that being baptised into Christ Jesus is to have been baptised into his death.
              Baptism into Christ is NOT baptism in the Holy Spirit, it is baptism in water.
              How do we know this is so? Says as much right here:
              Act 8:15 ... when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
              Last edited by tabibito; 07-23-2014, 08:06 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #52
                I know to believe is to obey. I never asserted otherwise. Your point?
                Calling me sunshine (now the second time is an attack).
                Acts 8:15 - they were water baptized but not yet had the baptism with the Holy Spirit. That took place through the imposition of hands.
                This does not detract at all from what I wrote concerning Romans 6:3.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  I know to believe is to obey. I never asserted otherwise. Your point?
                  ??
                  Calling me sunshine (now the second time is an attack).
                  So it is - just like telling a person to "get real" is an attack. But there is a difference between simple insult and an ad hominem attack. Declaring someone to be promoting a cult now - that is very much ad hominem, especially when you lay out nothing by way of evidence to support your claim.
                  Acts 8:15 - they were water baptized but not yet had the baptism with the Holy Spirit. That took place through the imposition of hands. This does not detract at all from what I wrote concerning Romans 6:3.
                  And? Is that the only way that people receive the Holy Spirit do you think?

                  Please cite your knowledge of Greek (degrees, scholarly papers, etc.) so we can compare it with those that I cite.
                  No formal qualifications in Koine Greek whatever.

                  1 Peter 3:21 uses the symbol of water baptism so your assertion that "no occurrence of "baptising" can be found outside of the gospels" is false.
                  Still waiting for you to explain how this is describing an actual baptism being conducted. As I said - using the same processes that your favourite commentators use, I can declare this to be only something that was for the first century church.
                  You say that process is the kind of thing cultists engage in.
                  I agree.
                  So - I'll ask again, have you correctly identified the process used by your favourite commentators as a process that identifies a cultist's teaching?
                  While you're at it - perhaps you would like to show whether any of your favourite commentators claimed that they were able to stop sinning.
                  And secondly - who among them has ever exercised any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ... and which gifts?
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-23-2014, 09:00 PM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    No formal qualifications in Koine Greek but you deny all who I cite in favor of your expertise over them.

                    Enough said.

                    later

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      You seem to forget that many of the early disciples were ιδιωτης - and the people who didn't know what they were talking about had more qualifications than you could poke a stick at.

                      Again:

                      have you correctly identified the process used by your favourite commentators as a process that identifies a cultist's teaching?
                      While you're at it - perhaps you would like to show whether any of your favourite commentators claimed that they were able to stop sinning.
                      And - who among them has ever exercised any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ... and which gifts?
                      Last edited by tabibito; 07-23-2014, 10:41 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Even if I were inclined to rely on commentators for exposition of scripture, (and proper exposition is more reliably available by learning from grammars and such how to interpret specific words and phrases) exposition moreover that is likely to be tainted by shoehorning the scripture into denominationally determined precepts. .... Why would I submit to learning from those particular commentaries that meet with your personal approval? Who appointed you the arbiter of which commentaries are acceptable as source material?
                        I have used commentaries in the past, and some of them conflicted with each other, which forced me to check the scriptures to determine which was right. Sometimes it was this one, at other times it was the one that was wrong last time. Often enough, the points were subtle and I had to refer to the Koine texts. These days, I skip the middle men and the aggravation, checking the Koine first. After that, I might check a commentary or three to see if I missed anything.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          In general foudroyant has accurately presented the biblical case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is, the receiving the Holy Spirit. While I differ with foudroyant on some points, he is overall, as I understand him, correct in his view.

                          The hermeneutical differences in interpretations on particular points need to be understood as to why one would, for example take one view on the term "baptism" in Romans 6 and another a different view. (I for example believe Romans 6 is talking about "water" baptism.) (compare Romans 6:3 with 1 Corinthians 10:2 as an example. . . . εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον ιησουν . . . with . . . εις τον μωσην εβαπτισαντο . . . )
                          Last edited by 37818; 07-27-2014, 01:21 AM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            In general foudroyant has accurately presented the biblical case for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is, the receiving the Holy Spirit. While I differ with foudroyant on some points, he is overall, as I understand him, correct in his view.

                            The hermeneutical differences in interpretations on particular points need to be understood as to why one would, for example take one view on the term "baptism" in Romans 6 and another a different view. (I for example believe Romans 6 is talking about "water" baptism.) (compare Romans 6:3 with 1 Corinthians 10:2 as an example. . . . εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον ιησουν . . . with . . . εις τον μωσην εβαπτισαντο . . . )

                            I took issue with this bit:
                            It's not for the entire first century Church. It was for the Jews of that time period of the first century Church. There are no clear cut examples given to us where anyone else was ever told to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord and thereby immediately receive the Holy Spirit.
                            Peter's declaration - in full - is
                            Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit 39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
                            Nothing like "for the Jews only, in the first century only" can be adduced from the BIBLE. Nor can "immediately" be adduced from the verse. If baptism in the Holy Spirit was an automatic or immediate consequence, the events detailed in Acts 8:16 would have been impossible.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              (I for example believe Romans 6 is talking about "water" baptism.)
                              No doubt about it:
                              Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
                              Acts 8:15-17 makes it clear that "Baptism into Christ" is not baptism in the Holy Spirit.
                              Act 8:15 ... they ... prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
                              Of course, it does take a bit of work to demonstrate that "Baptism into the name of Christ" and "Baptism into Christ" are the same thing.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Peter's declaration - in full - is
                                Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit 39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
                                Nothing like "for the Jews only, in the first century only" can be adduced from the BIBLE. Nor can "immediately" be adduced from the verse. If baptism in the Holy Spirit was an automatic or immediate consequence, the events detailed in Acts 8:16 would have been impossible.
                                Yes, the "promise" (the Holy Spirit) is for all.
                                1. Mounce: Several places in the NT identify what God has promised as the end-time gift of the Holy Spirit. In Lk. 24:49 Jesus tells the disciples that he is sending "the promise of the Father" to them, and then in Acts 1:4 this thought is resumed when the disciples are instructed to remain in Jerusalem and await "the promise of the Father." In Acts 2:33 it becomes explicit that in this case "the promise of the Father" is the Holy Spirit as Luke records Peter saying in his Pentecost sermon: "having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear." Paul connects the promise of the Holy Spirit to the blessing of Abraham in Gal. 3:14. Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit of the promise (Eph. 1:13) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Promise, page 542).
                                2. Robertson: Concerning the "promise" in Acts 2:39:
                                The promise made by Jesus (#1:4) and foretold by Joel (verse #18).
                                http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertact2.htm


                                How the Jews of that time period received Him though was first by water baptism (Acts 2:38; cf. Acts 22:16).
                                http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...2-in-Acts-2-38
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 07-27-2014, 10:02 PM.

                                Comment

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