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The baptism with the Holy Spirit

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  • The baptism with the Holy Spirit

    1. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs only one time when a person is placed into the body of Christ (The Church). If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then that person is not a Christian.
    Those in Acts 2:4 were already saved but it was this event that placed them into the body of Christ.

    The following terms synonymously describe what the Holy Spirit does only once to a person upon entering the body of Christ/Church.
    a. Fell (Acts 8:16; 10:44; 11:15)
    b. Poured (Acts 10:45; Titus 3:6)
    c. Received (Acts 2:38; 8:17; 10:47)
    d. Baptized (Acts 1:5; 11:16; Romans 6:3, etc.)
    *e. Filled (11:17; 15:8 cf. Acts 2:4)
    f. Given (Acts 8:18; 11:17; 15:8)
    g. Came (Acts 1:8; 19:6)
    h. Clothed (Luke 24:49; Galatians 3:27)
    i. Sealed (Ephesians 1:13)


    *The filling of the Holy Spirit can occur again after one enters the body of Christ/Church (Acts 9:17; Acts 13:9).
    Mounce: Even after people are permanently filled with the Spirit at conversion, the Spirit can again fill them in a sense that he possesses and empowers them in a special way for a temporary, specific task, such as when Peter spoke to the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:8) and the church prayed for boldness (4:31). Paul is filled with the Spirit (9:17) and almost immediately begins to testify (9:20). He is later filled with the Spirit again and denounces Elymas the magician (13:9) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fill, page 250).
    --------------------------------------------------
    2. Paul
    Romans 6:3
    Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (NASB)
    This saving baptism results in the Christian no longer being "slaves to sin" (Romans 6:6). This "spirit of slavery" is cancelled because the Christian has received the "Spirit of adoption" (Romans 8:15).
    a. Danker: of those who believe in Christ and are accepted by God as God's children with full rights that we might receive the adoption as sons ("that" to "sons" written in Greek) Gal 4:5; cp. Eph 1:5. The Spirit, whom the converts receive, works as pneuma huiothesias Ro 8:15 (opp. pn. douleias = such a spirit as is possessed by a slave, not by the son of a house). The believers enter into full enjoyment of their huiothesia only when the time of fulfillment releases them fr. the earthly body vs. 23 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, huiothesia, page 1024).
    b. EDNT: The Spirit received by the believers is pneuma huiothesias (and not douleias) and allows them to experience the new father-son relationship (Rom 8:15) (3:381, F. Hahn).
    c. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in Romans (2:29; 5:5; 7:6; 8:2, 9, 23; 12:1-2).

    1 Corinthians 6:11
    Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB)
    1. TDNT: Similarly, when pneuma is the power of sanctification (R. 15:16; 1 C. 6:11; also 2 Th. 2:13), one cannot say whether Paul's emphasis is that the Spirit sets us in God's saving action and justifies us, or that He enables us to live thereby in concrete obedience. The two are one in the same (6:431, pnueuma, Schweizer).
    2. NIDNTT: The Spirit as the fundamental mark of belonging to Christ.
    As with the first Christians so with Paul, the gift of the Spirit is what makes the individual a member of Christ (Rom. 8:9; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Cor. 11:4; 1 Thess. 4:8), united with him through the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), a sharer in his sonship (Rom. 8:14-6; Gal. 4:6). The Spirit, as it were, is the exalted Lord's steward taking possession of his property on his behalf (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19 f.). It is the reception of the Spirit through faith which marks the beginning of the Christian life (Gal. 3:2 f.), a gift which fulfills the promise to Abraham and which therefore is another name for justification (Gal. 3:14; 1 Cor. 6:11) - that is, the gift of righteousness understood as having "the character of power" (cf. E. Kasemann, "'The Righteousness of God' in Paul", New Testament Questions of Today, 1969, 168-182). Alternatively expressed, it is by being baptized in the one Spirit, drenched with the one Spirit, that individuals become members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (3:700-7011, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (NASB)
    a. NIDNTT: For several reasons it seems probable that en heni pneumati in 1 Cor. 12:13 means not (“by one Spirit" but "in (or with) one Spirit". (a) Elsewhere hypo expresses personal agency with baptizw. (b) There is no certain instance of an instrumental en with baptizw: in other examples of en pneumati, the parallel with en hydati dictates that en should mean "in" or "with" and not "by (means of)", denoting personal agency, see Matt. 9:34; 12:24, 28; Acts 17:31 [cf. 4:12]; Phil. 4:13). (c) In the logia of John the Baptist regarding "Spirit-baptism", it is always Jesus who is the baptizer, never the Spirit. Accordingly in 1 Cor. 12:13, the agent should be taken as implied (viz. Jesus Christ). (d) In the one place Paul uses en with baptizw (1 Cor. 10:2), the prep. is local in sense ("in the cloud and in the sea"). (e) The following phrase "we were all given one Spirit to drink" (1 Cor. 12:13b) suggests an inward participation in the Spirit to which a preceding outward "immersion in the Spirit" would correspond. The Spirit is both around (v. 13a) and within (v. 13b; cf. Eph. 5:18). (f) The parallel en heni pneumati in Eph. 2:18 cannot be an instrumental use of en, since di' autou (= Christ) precedes (but cf. Eph. 3:5; 4:30). However en tw heni pneumati in 1 Cor. 12:9 is undoubtedly instrumental in sense, in light of the preceding dia tou pneumatos (1 Cor. 12:8; cf. vv. 7, 8b, 11). To deny that en is instrumental in 1 Cor. 12:13 is not, of course, to deny the personality of the Spirit, but simply to recognize that baptizw need not always mean "to baptize in water" but may be used metaphorically of immersion, inundation or deluging (3:1210, Appendix, en, Murray Harris).
    b. NIDNTT: it is by being baptized in the one Spirit, drenched with the one Spirit, that individuals become members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13) (3:701, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
    c. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in Paul's letters to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16; 3:16; 6:11, 17-19; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 3:3, 6, 16-18; 5:5; 11:4)

    Galatians 3:27
    For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (NASB)
    a. Clothing oneself with Christ is the same thing as being baptized with Christ without any reference to water baptism (Luke 24:49 cf. Acts 1:5).
    And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high. (Luke 24:49, NASB)
    for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. (Acts 1:5, NASB)
    b. Comparing to Galatians 3:14 with Galatians 3:29 being a descendant of Abraham is the result of receiving the promise of the Spirit.
    in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14, NASB)
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:29, NASB)
    c. Mounce: Several places in the NT identify what God has promised as the end-time gift of the Holy Spirit. In Lk. 24:49 Jesus tells the disciples that he is sending "the promise of the Father" to them, and then in Acts 1:4 this thought is resumed when the disciples are instructed to remain in Jerusalem and await "the promise of the Father." In Acts 2:33 it becomes explicit that in this case "the promise of the Father" is the Holy Spirit as Luke records Peter saying in his Pentecost sermon: "having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear." Paul connects the promise of the Holy Spirit to the blessing of Abraham in Gal. 3:14. (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Promise, page 542).
    d. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in Galatians (3:2-5; 5:16-26).

    Ephesians 5:26
    so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. (NASB).
    1. The washing of the water refers to the cleansing administered by the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the word of God.
    Whedon: Referring, no doubt, to baptism, in which the water is the symbolical element of the sanctifying Spirit, which is the real element.
    By the gospel word, which is preached, by which baptism is effected, and which is concentrated into the final baptism formula.
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=48&ch=5

    Colossians 2:11-12
    and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
    having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (NASB)
    1. TDNT: For him the only true Jew is the one who is a Jew in secret, and the only true circumcision is that of the heart (peritome kardias), R. 2:28 f. This circumcision of the heart is, of course, the work of the Spirit, not of man, v. 29. This means that the circumcision of the heart is for Paul identical with redemption by Christ, and in Col. 2:11 f. he can even call baptism the peritome Xristou (6:83, peritemnw, Meyer).
    2. Thomas Constable: Our spiritual circumcision (v. 11) took place when God regenerated us (cf. Gal. 5:24). It involved Christ cutting off the dominion of our sinful nature (flesh), which slavery characterizes the unregenerate person (cf. Rom. 7:24-25). "Baptism" (v.12) is Spirit baptism (Notes on Colossians, Thomas L. Constable, 2013 Edition, page 35).
    3. Before the Gentiles were water baptized they were worshiping in the Spirit of God (Acts 10:46) so thus they were already part of the "true circumcision" (Philippians 3:3) before they were water baptized (cf. Colossians 2:11). Since they were "praying in the Holy Spirit" they were building themselves up on their "most holy faith" (Jude 1:20).
    a. NIDNTT: When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck).
    b. Vine: It is used metaphorically and spiritually of believers with reference to the act, Col. 2:11 and Rom. 2:29; to the condition, Phil. 3:3 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Circumcision, page 184).
    c. NIDNTT: For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3)...Similarly worship and prayer were not a matter of liturgical rote or outward form, but worship was characterized precisely as worship in or by the Spirit of God (Rom. 2:28f; Phil 3:3; cf. Eph. 2:18, 22) (3:701 -702, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
    d. NIDNTT: Jude 19-20 is very Pauline in character: believers are those who by definition have the Spirit, whereas those who boast of their spirituality thereby give evidence of their unspirituality (cf. 1 Cor. 2:12-3:4); he alone outside the Pauline letters exhorts his readers to pray in the Spirit (cf. 1 Cor. 14:15; Eph. 6:18) (3:705, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).

    Titus 3:5-6
    He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (NASB)
    a. Philip H. Towner: But here, as in Eph 5:26, the term falls into the metaphorical sphere, with the image of washing referring to a spiritual cleansing. Some have seen in this image a reference to the rite of water baptism, but there is reason to see it rather as a reference to the work of the Spirit in terms of a "washing" that, then, the outward rite of water baptism might serve to symbolize...
    While there are numerous variations, two main arrangements of the two nouns in relation to "washing" and the preceding preposition have been suggested.
    1. through the washing of rebirth and (through) renewal by the Holy Spirit
    In this case, the decision has been made to isolate two operations, the first "the washing of rebirth," and the second (by assuming the repetition of the preposition) "renewal by the Holy Spirit."
    2. through the washing of (i.e., that effects) rebirth and renewal, (which washing is done) by the Holy Spirit
    Here, however, the single preposition dia is thought to indicate a single "washing" that produces the complex result, "rebirth and renewal," with the final genitive, "of the Holy Spirit," understood as the agent of the "washing."
    Solving this difficulty is not a simple matter. But two factors give the stronger support to the second arrangement. First, the conceptual similarity of the metaphors "rebirth" and "renewal" suggests unity. Second, this implication is strengthened by the fact that they are governed in this instance by the single preposition dia. The most likely intention of the phrase is, then, to view a single event from two slightly different, yet interrelated, perspectives. This rules out the possibility the text conceives of two separate events (either, according to the liturgical traditions, baptism and confirmation, or according to the Pentecostal tradition, conversion and baptism in the Spirit).
    If one complex event is mind, then the final genitive phrase, "of (or by) the Holy Spirit," despite its location at the end of the phrase, is best understood at attributing this "washing" by which people are saved to the agency of the Holy Spirit. What Paul has done with this material thus far (and will develop further) is to emphasize the present reality of the salvation event by describing it in terms of the gift of the Holy Spirit (The Letters to Timothy and Titus, Philip H. Towner, p. 781, 783).
    b. See also Michael Porter
    http://vintage.aomin.org/NotByWorks.html


    Ephesians 4:5
    one Lord, one faith, one baptism (NASB)
    1. As demonstrated above baptism with the Holy Spirit for Paul constitutes the one baptism that places a person into the body of Christ.
    2. Some may insist that when it reads "one baptism" it must mean "only" water baptism remains otherwise if Spirit baptism still takes place that would mean there are two baptisms when this passage reads "one baptism". Furthermore, in Acts 11:15-17 Peter had to go all the way back to what took place in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5) to give the only other example when the baptism with the Holy Spirit took place. If it was a regular occurrence he would not have had to have done this.
    In response to this I will point out again that there is only baptism that places a person into the body of Christ and this refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    Furthermore, Mark 10:39 teaches that John would still undergo a "baptism" (his death) even after Ephesians 4:5 was written.
    By referring back to the baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 11:17) Peter is not saying this was only the second time this event took place. It was because the Jews had such extreme misgivings about the Gentiles that Peter needed to emphasize that since the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit they were just as much part of the Church as when he and the others with him were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit "poured" upon you (Acts 10:45) and being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16) is the same thing. This pouring = baptism applies to all who are Christians (Titus 3:6).
    In fact, Christ's death is described as both a "pouring" and a "baptism".
    Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12, NASB).
    But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" (Mark 10:38, NASB)
    3. Mounce: The OT stress laid in Isaiah's promise of a Messiah who would have a special endowment of the Spirit (Isa. 61:1-3) and on Joel's prophecy about the pouring out of the Spirit on the godly in the last days (Joel 2:28-29)...Just as John baptized with water, the one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11, 16). Such imagery describes the type of "Spirit baptism" the believer receives - a baptism of the Spirit prophesied in the OT and fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Spirit, page 676).
    4. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in Ephesians (1:13-14; 2:18; 3:6, 16; 4:30).

    Continued...
    Last edited by foudroyant; 06-20-2014, 10:27 AM.

  • #2
    3. Peter
    1 Peter 3:21
    Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (NASB)
    1. Robertson: The saving by baptism in which Peter here mentions is only symbolic (a metaphor or picture as in Romans 6:2-6)
    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=59&ch=3
    2. The ark is a type of Christ (See "Gleanings in Genesis" by Arthur W. Pink, 'The Typology of the Ark', chapter 13).
    a. Before the waters of the flood came they were already sealed in the ark (Luke 17:27). Likewise, before one is water baptized today they are already sealed in Christ (Ephesians 1:13).
    b. The ark was provided before the cataclysm so was Christ (Revelation 13:8).
    c. The ark provided deliverance to Noah while Christ provides deliverance to us (Colossians 1:13).
    d. There was only one ark and there is only one Savior (Acts 4:12).
    e. God revealed the ark to Noah and God reveals Christ to us (2 Corinthians 4:6).
    f. God waited patiently for those to come into the ark and He waits patiently for people to receive Christ (1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:9).
    g. There was a limited amount of time to enter the ark (Genesis 7:11-13) just as there is a limited amount of time to receive salvation in Christ (2
    Corinthians 6:2).
    h. The ark was made of wood (Genesis 6:14). Christ was the root out of parched ground (Isaiah 53:2) and a branch (Isaiah 11:1).
    i. The ark was to have a "cover/pitch" (kopher) inside and out (Genesis 6:14). It had no value without this covering. This same word "kaphar" (verb form) is used to describe the atonement because of the blood of Christ (Leviticus 17:11).
    j. Inside the ark one was saved from God's wrath - the same with Christ (John 3:36).
    k. Only a few people were saved in the ark (Genesis 7:7) while only a few people will be saved in Christ (Matthew 7:13-14).
    3. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in Peter's epistles:
    NIDNTT: To the idea of sanctification by the Spirit (1:2) there is added the blunt warning, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who has called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct" (1:14f.; cf. Lev. 19:2). This is continued in 2:5: "and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." Thus the dynamic of the outpouring of the Spirit is here restated in terms of the holy functions of the priesthood (2:230, Holy, Seebass).
    ------------------------------------------------
    4. John
    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". (NASB).
    1. Vine: Some regard the kai, "and," in John 3:5, as epexegetic, = 'even,' in which case the water would be emblematic of the Spirit, as in John 7:38 (cp. 4:10, 14) (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Water, page 1214).
    2. Water baptism in the name (authority) of the Triune God was not even implemented or discussed yet so the Lord Jesus would not have expected Nicodemus to make the connection that "water" would refer to water baptism (John 3:10). Indeed, there is not one Old Testament text that teaches this as well.
    3. This work of the Holy Spirit is also referenced elsewhere in John's writings (1:33; 6:63; 7:37-39; 14:17; 1 John 2:20, 27; 3:24; 4:13).
    -----------------------------------------------
    5. Other passages
    a. John 20:22
    And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (NASB)
    Some may claim that the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles in John 20:22 before Pentecost (Acts 2:4).
    When the Lord Jesus said "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically to what took place in Acts 2:4 because:
    1. Thomas wasn’t there when this event took place but he was there with the others during Pentecost.
    2. The Lord Jesus will "send" (present tense) the Holy Spirit to them whereas the second half of the passage points to this taking place at a later date (Luke 24:49). W.E. Vine asserts that this event "...was symbolic of the Holy Spirit about to be sent in the world, and with the effect of their ministry of the gospel in the forgiveness of sins by the Spirit's power, or the retention of sins by the rejection of the message (vv. 23, 24). It was a prophetic act as well as symbolic" (John: His Record of Christ, page 183).
    3. The Old Covenant practice of casting lots was employed to ascertain who would replace Judas. Casting lots was no longer necessary nor was it practiced during the age of the Spirit (Acts 2:4f.)
    David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today. (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts, page 128-129).
    4. NIDNTT: The recognition that John is making a theological point in Jn. 20:22 (death, resurrection, ascension and gift of Spirit form a single theological unity), rather than offering a strict chronological account, should render unnecessary any attempt to achieve a chronological or theological harmonization of Jn. 20:22 with Acts 2 (3:704, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).

    b. The Samaritans (Acts 8) and the disciples of John (Acts 19) became Christians when they received the Holy Spirit through the imposition of hands.
    1. The apostles request the gift of the Spirit for those baptised by them, Ac. 8:15 (6:54, peri, Riesenfeld).
    2. TDNT: Ac. 19:6 shows that the age of salvation has already dawned; the Holy Spirit comes on the believers in Ephesus by the laying on of the hands of Paul (2:675, erchomai, Schneider).
    3. Wuest: Acts 19:6 has to do with a special case where Jews had come into salvation under the Old Testament dispensation of law and now were receiving the added benefits of the Age of Grace, a case which cannot occur today (Word Studies in the Greek New Testament 3:109, chapter 4, Light from the Greek on the Ministry of the Holy Spirit: The Fullness of the Spirit).
    4. Bruce: The sequence of the component elements in Christian initiation varies from one occasion to another in Acts. Peter's hearers in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost repent, are baptized, and receive the Spirit (2:38, 41); the Samaritans evangelized by Philip believed and are baptized "into the name of the Lord Jesus", but do not receive the Spirit until apostolic hands are laid on them (8:12, 14-17); Cornelius and his household receive the Spirit while they are still listening to the message and are then baptized (Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, F.F. Bruce, page 280, chapter 25, Baptism and the Lord's Supper in Pauline Thought).
    5. TDNT: What a man receives from God (or Christ) is in the first instance this pneuma (J. 7:39; 20:22; Ac. 1:8; 2:38; R. 8:15; 1 C. 2:12), along with His specific charismatic operations (1 Pt. 4:10). Reception of the pneuma distinguishes Christians from the world (Jn. 14:17) and so unequivocally constitutes them Christians that (in Ac.) the answer to the question whether there has been reception of the Spirit determines absolutely whether a man is a Christian or not (Ac. 10:47; 19:2) (4:7, lambanw, Delling)
    Last edited by foudroyant; 06-19-2014, 07:01 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      1. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs only one time when a person is placed into the body of Christ (The Church). If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then that person is not a Christian. . . .
      I agree. Jesus baptizes/immerses the saved now with the Holy Spirit, and the lost with fire in the judgement (Matthew 3:11-12).
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        I agree. Jesus baptizes/immerses the saved now with the Holy Spirit, and the lost with fire in the judgement (Matthew 3:11-12).
        There are different takes on what the baptism with fire means (I am undecided):

        Debatable
        1. Danker: whether pur in Mt 3:11; Lk 3:16 refers to reception of the Holy Spirit (esp. in Lk 3:16) or to the fire of divine judgment is debatable (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pur, page 898).
        2. NIDNTT: In Matt. 3:11 the phrase en pneumatic hagiw kai pyri points not to two baptisms (viz., the righteous with the Holy Spirit, the wicked with fire), but to a single baptism in Spirit-and-fire, that may be interpreted either as the messianic purification and judgment that would be effected by the Spirit (cf. Isa. 4:4; 30:28) and experienced by all, or as the outpouring of the Spirit on believers at Pentecost that would refine and inflame them (3:1178, Appendix – 5. Neglect of the Possible Significance of (a) the Non-repetition of the Preposition with Copulated Nouns, and (b) the Order of Nouns that follow a Preposition, Murray Harris).
        3. Louw/Nida: In Mt 3.11 ‘fire’ is generally regarded as a reference to the experience of Pentecost, but it is possible to understand ‘fire’ in this context as referring to judgment (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains, 53:49 footnote #6, page 539).
        4. Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament: Baptism with fire is explained in Matthew 3:12; it is a baptism of judgment separating the wheat from the chaff, and burning the chaff with fire unquenchable (Allen, Com. in loc .; so || Luke 3:17). This interpretation, however, is denied by Plummer (International Critical Commentary on Luke 3:16 ), who prefers a reference to the purifying power of the grace given, or to the fiery trials that await Christians. Others see a reference to the tongues like as of fire at Pentecost (Acts 2:3).
        http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=254

        Judgment
        1. TDNT: Concerning Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16: The coming Messiah will give penitents the Spirit promised for the last time (cf. 1 QS 4:20-22) and judge the recalcitrant with fire (6:943, pur, Lang).
        2. Vine: of the fire of Divine judgment upon the rejectors of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the fire of Divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Luke 3:16 (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fire, page 432).
        3. Thayer: of the fire of hell…Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16 (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pur, page 558). with the addition kai puri to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i.e. to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell, Mt. 3:11 (baptizw, page 94).
        4. Fausset's Bible Dictionary: John the Baptist, as the last and greatest prophet of the Old Testament dispensation, declared of the Messiah, "He shall baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire," referring to His judicial aspect, "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:11-12). Fire also symbolizes the purifying of believers by testing dealings (Malachi 3:2), also the holy zeal kindled in them as at Pentecost (Acts 2; Isaiah 4:4). The same Holy Spirit who sanctifies believers by the fire of affliction dooms unbelievers to the fire of perdition.
        http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1278
        5. Broadus: But what is meant by the additional words, and fire? Observe that in the preceding verse the fire receives the unfruitful trees, and in the next verse the fire consumes the chaff. Matthew 3:11 evidently teaches the same general lesson, and it would therefore be natural to understand the fire which ends each of the three parallel sentences in essentially the same way as a fire which consumes the wicked. And notice that Luke (Luke 3:16) who also gives 'and fire,' has the other images of burning the unfruitful trees and the chaff, (Luke 3:9, Luke 3:17) while in Mark 1:8, John 1:33; and Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, where the other images are not mentioned, neither are the words 'and fire' given. This would seem to leave no doubt as to the meaning of these words. The objection is that in the other images (Matthew 3:10, Matthew 3:12) two classes are distinguished, and the destiny of each is separately stated; while here it is simply 'shall baptize you,' one class of persons, 'in the Holy Spirit and fire,' without even repeating the preposition before 'fire' as if it meant one class and one destiny, though stated by means of two terms. But the 'you' whom John is addressing are not simply the believing and penitent, but the Jews in general, with special reference at the outset (Matthew 3:7 f.) to the Pharisees and Sadducees. Now it had been predicted by Malachi (Matthew 3:1 ff.) that the messenger of the covenant would come and purify the nation (especially the Levites, who were necessary to a bettered worship and national life), as silver is purified in a furnace; and this does not simply mean that he would purify individuals by consuming what was faulty in them, but Malachi 4:1-3 shows it to mean that he would purify the nation by consuming the wicked individuals like 'stubble,' and then the truly righteous of the nation would rejoice and prosper. The nation would be, as it were, thrown into a furnace of fire, which would consume the wicked among them, and leave a purified nation. In like manner, John says, the mighty Coming One will 'plunge you,' the Jews whom he is addressing, 'in the Holy Spirit and fire'; some will be consumed and some preserved, a purified people. Just how far the 'Holy Spirit' in John's mouth differs from the O. T. and approaches the N. T. idea, it would be very difficult, and is not necessary, to determine. But it can scarcely be questioned that John's thought is connected with that of Malachi, and if so, the explanation just offered is in all probability correct. Compare Bleek. More or less similar is the view of Origen, Fritzsche, Neander, de Wette, Hengstenberg, Meyer, Reynolds. Many, however, suppose that the 'Holy Spirit' is to be taken in the strictly N. T. sense, and 'fire' is simply appended as an image of the Spirit's purifying work upon the individual, consuming his faults. So Chrys., most Roman Catholic commentators, Calvin, Olshausen, Ewald, Godet, Edersh., Morison, and a number of others. Some of these think we have a similar expression in John 3:5, 'born of water and the Spirit,' and some refer to the tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost as an actual exhibition of the image which John here employed. Such a view disregards the striking parallelism of Matthew's three sentences, and rejects the guidance of Malachi. Our Lord promised the disciples (Acts 1:5) a baptism in the Holy Spirit ere many days, which wan fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and on that day appeared tongue-shaped flames sit ting on their heads, and obviously symbolizing the power of speaking with other tongues. And it is maintained that this is what John meant. But Jesus did not in his promise add 'and fire,' and there is no mention of fiery tongues in the case of Cornelius and his household, when Peter expressly recognized (Acts 11:16) a fulfilment of the Saviour's promise. Nay, the forerunner meant something deeper and broader than the power of speaking with tongues; he was describing the great work of discrimination, by which some would be destroyed and the rest purified.
        http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=39&ch=3

        The Holy Spirit
        1. Mounce: Fire is also connected to the presence of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:3). In at least two places fire represents the reception of the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) (Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fire, page 253).
        2. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: This expression is used in Matthew 3:11 . The copulative και, kai requires that the baptism "in the Holy Ghost and in fire," should be regarded as one and the same thing. It does violence to the construction, therefore, to make this statement refer to the fire of judgment. The difficulty has always been in associating fire with the person of the Holy Ghost. But in the connection of fire with the work or influence of the Holy Ghost the difficulty disappears. The thought of John is that the Saviour would give them the Divine Sanctifier as purifying water to wash away their sins and as a refining fire to consume their dross; to kindle in their hearts the holy flame of Divine love and zeal; to illuminate their souls with heavenly wisdom. The statement, therefore, in this verse indicates the manner in which Christ will admit them to discipleship and prepare them for His service.
        http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=1146


        Pentecost
        1. Alford: This was literally fulfilled at the day of Pentecost: but Origen and others refer the words to the baptism of the righteous by the Holy Spirit, and of the wicked by fire. I have no doubt that this (which I am surprised to see upheld by Neander, De Wette, and Meyer) is a mistake in the present case, though apparently (to the superficial reader) borne out by Matthew 3:12. The double symbolic reference of fire, elsewhere found, e.g. Mark 9:50, as purifying the good and consuming the evil, though illustrated by these verses, is hardly to be pressed into the interpretation of πυρί in this verse, the prophecy here being solely of that higher and more perfect baptism to which that of John was a mere introduction. To separate off πν. ἁγίῳ as belonging to one set of persons, and πυρί as belonging to another, when both are united in ὑμᾶς, is in the last degree harsh, besides introducing confusion into the whole. The members of comparison in this verse are strictly parallel to one another: the baptism by water, the end of which is μετάνοια, a mere transition state, a note of preparation,—and the baptism by the Holy Ghost and fire, the end of which is (Matthew 3:12) sanctification, the entire aim and purpose of man’s creation and renewal.
        http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=39&ch=3
        Last edited by foudroyant; 06-23-2014, 02:00 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think the fire refers to his judgment in general, including his discipline over the believer

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            There are different takes on what the baptism with fire means (I am undecided):

            Debatable
            1. Danker: whether pur in Mt 3:11; Lk 3:16 refers to reception of the Holy Spirit (esp. in Lk 3:16) or to the fire of divine judgment is debatable (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pur, page 898).
            2. NIDNTT: In Matt. 3:11 the phrase en pneumatic hagiw kai pyri points not to two baptisms (viz., the righteous with the Holy Spirit, the wicked with fire), but to a single baptism in Spirit-and-fire, that may be interpreted either as the messianic purification and judgment that would be effected by the Spirit (cf. Isa. 4:4; 30:28) and experienced by all, or as the outpouring of the Spirit on believers at Pentecost that would refine and inflame them (3:1178, Appendix – 5. Neglect of the Possible Significance of (a) the Non-repetition of the Preposition with Copulated Nouns, and (b) the Order of Nouns that follow a Preposition, Murray Harris).
            3. Louw/Nida: In Mt 3.11 ‘fire’ is generally regarded as a reference to the experience of Pentecost, but it is possible to understand ‘fire’ in this context as referring to judgment (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains, 53:49 footnote #6, page 539).
            4. Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament: Baptism with fire is explained in Matthew 3:12; it is a baptism of judgment separating the wheat from the chaff, and burning the chaff with fire unquenchable (Allen, Com. in loc .; so || Luke 3:17). This interpretation, however, is denied by Plummer (International Critical Commentary on Luke 3:16 ), who prefers a reference to the purifying power of the grace given, or to the fiery trials that await Christians. Others see a reference to the tongues like as of fire at Pentecost (Acts 2:3).
            http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=254

            Judgment
            1. TDNT: Concerning Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16: The coming Messiah will give penitents the Spirit promised for the last time (cf. 1 QS 4:20-22) and judge the recalcitrant with fire (6:943, pur, Lang).
            2. Vine: of the fire of Divine judgment upon the rejectors of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the fire of Divine retribution; Acts 2:3 could not refer to baptism); Luke 3:16 (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fire, page 432).
            3. Thayer: of the fire of hell…Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16 (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pur, page 558). with the addition kai puri to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i.e. to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell, Mt. 3:11 (baptizw, page 94).
            4. Fausset's Bible Dictionary: John the Baptist, as the last and greatest prophet of the Old Testament dispensation, declared of the Messiah, "He shall baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire," referring to His judicial aspect, "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:11-12). Fire also symbolizes the purifying of believers by testing dealings (Malachi 3:2), also the holy zeal kindled in them as at Pentecost (Acts 2; Isaiah 4:4). The same Holy Spirit who sanctifies believers by the fire of affliction dooms unbelievers to the fire of perdition.
            http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1278
            5. Broadus: But what is meant by the additional words, and fire? Observe that in the preceding verse the fire receives the unfruitful trees, and in the next verse the fire consumes the chaff. Matthew 3:11 evidently teaches the same general lesson, and it would therefore be natural to understand the fire which ends each of the three parallel sentences in essentially the same way as a fire which consumes the wicked. And notice that Luke (Luke 3:16) who also gives 'and fire,' has the other images of burning the unfruitful trees and the chaff, (Luke 3:9, Luke 3:17) while in Mark 1:8, John 1:33; and Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, where the other images are not mentioned, neither are the words 'and fire' given. This would seem to leave no doubt as to the meaning of these words. The objection is that in the other images (Matthew 3:10, Matthew 3:12) two classes are distinguished, and the destiny of each is separately stated; while here it is simply 'shall baptize you,' one class of persons, 'in the Holy Spirit and fire,' without even repeating the preposition before 'fire' as if it meant one class and one destiny, though stated by means of two terms. But the 'you' whom John is addressing are not simply the believing and penitent, but the Jews in general, with special reference at the outset (Matthew 3:7 f.) to the Pharisees and Sadducees. Now it had been predicted by Malachi (Matthew 3:1 ff.) that the messenger of the covenant would come and purify the nation (especially the Levites, who were necessary to a bettered worship and national life), as silver is purified in a furnace; and this does not simply mean that he would purify individuals by consuming what was faulty in them, but Malachi 4:1-3 shows it to mean that he would purify the nation by consuming the wicked individuals like 'stubble,' and then the truly righteous of the nation would rejoice and prosper. The nation would be, as it were, thrown into a furnace of fire, which would consume the wicked among them, and leave a purified nation. In like manner, John says, the mighty Coming One will 'plunge you,' the Jews whom he is addressing, 'in the Holy Spirit and fire'; some will be consumed and some preserved, a purified people. Just how far the 'Holy Spirit' in John's mouth differs from the O. T. and approaches the N. T. idea, it would be very difficult, and is not necessary, to determine. But it can scarcely be questioned that John's thought is connected with that of Malachi, and if so, the explanation just offered is in all probability correct. Compare Bleek. More or less similar is the view of Origen, Fritzsche, Neander, de Wette, Hengstenberg, Meyer, Reynolds. Many, however, suppose that the 'Holy Spirit' is to be taken in the strictly N. T. sense, and 'fire' is simply appended as an image of the Spirit's purifying work upon the individual, consuming his faults. So Chrys., most Roman Catholic commentators, Calvin, Olshausen, Ewald, Godet, Edersh., Morison, and a number of others. Some of these think we have a similar expression in John 3:5, 'born of water and the Spirit,' and some refer to the tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost as an actual exhibition of the image which John here employed. Such a view disregards the striking parallelism of Matthew's three sentences, and rejects the guidance of Malachi. Our Lord promised the disciples (Acts 1:5) a baptism in the Holy Spirit ere many days, which wan fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, and on that day appeared tongue-shaped flames sit ting on their heads, and obviously symbolizing the power of speaking with other tongues. And it is maintained that this is what John meant. But Jesus did not in his promise add 'and fire,' and there is no mention of fiery tongues in the case of Cornelius and his household, when Peter expressly recognized (Acts 11:16) a fulfilment of the Saviour's promise. Nay, the forerunner meant something deeper and broader than the power of speaking with tongues; he was describing the great work of discrimination, by which some would be destroyed and the rest purified.
            http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=39&ch=3

            The Holy Spirit
            1. Mounce: Fire is also connected to the presence of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:3). In at least two places fire represents the reception of the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) (Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Fire, page 253).
            2. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: This expression is used in Matthew 3:11 . The copulative και, kai requires that the baptism "in the Holy Ghost and in fire," should be regarded as one and the same thing. It does violence to the construction, therefore, to make this statement refer to the fire of judgment. The difficulty has always been in associating fire with the person of the Holy Ghost. But in the connection of fire with the work or influence of the Holy Ghost the difficulty disappears. The thought of John is that the Saviour would give them the Divine Sanctifier as purifying water to wash away their sins and as a refining fire to consume their dross; to kindle in their hearts the holy flame of Divine love and zeal; to illuminate their souls with heavenly wisdom. The statement, therefore, in this verse indicates the manner in which Christ will admit them to discipleship and prepare them for His service.
            http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=1146

            Pentecost
            1. Alford: This was literally fulfilled at the day of Pentecost: but Origen and others refer the words to the baptism of the righteous by the Holy Spirit, and of the wicked by fire. I have no doubt that this (which I am surprised to see upheld by Neander, De Wette, and Meyer) is a mistake in the present case, though apparently (to the superficial reader) borne out by Matthew 3:12. The double symbolic reference of fire, elsewhere found, e.g. Mark 9:50, as purifying the good and consuming the evil, though illustrated by these verses, is hardly to be pressed into the interpretation of πυρί in this verse, the prophecy here being solely of that higher and more perfect baptism to which that of John was a mere introduction. To separate off πν. ἁγίῳ as belonging to one set of persons, and πυρί as belonging to another, when both are united in ὑμᾶς, is in the last degree harsh, besides introducing confusion into the whole. The members of comparison in this verse are strictly parallel to one another: the baptism by water, the end of which is μετάνοια, a mere transition state, a note of preparation,—and the baptism by the Holy Ghost and fire, the end of which is (Matthew 3:12) sanctification, the entire aim and purpose of man’s creation and renewal.
            http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=39&ch=3
            Source: 2 Nephi 31:13, Book of Mormon,

            Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Source: 2 Nephi 31:17, Book of Mormon,

            Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Whereas the word of God is explicit, ". . . now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. . . . and [with] fire: . . . he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. " -- Matthew 3:10-12.

            ". . . Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. " -- Matthew 7:10.

            ". . . As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; . . ." -- Matthew 13:40.

            ". . . And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " -- Matthew 13:42.

            ". . . shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. " -- Matthew 13:50.

            ". . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.

            ". . . the fire is not quenched. " -- Mark 9:48.

            ". . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. " -- John 15.6.
            Last edited by 37818; 06-23-2014, 12:25 AM.
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

            Comment


            • #7
              1. Why cite the Book of Mormon?
              2. Why can't the use of "and" ('kai' in Greek) be used epexegetically?

              I am leaning towards the view held by Alexander MacLaren:
              But take one warning word in conclusion. The alternative for every man is to be baptized in the fire or to be consumed by it. The symbol of which we have been speaking sets forth the double thought of purifying and destruction. Nothing which we have said as to the former in the least weakens the completing truth that there is in it an under side of possible terror. One of the felicities of the emblem is its capacity to set forth this twofold idea. There is that in the divine nature which the Bible calls wrath, the necessary displeasure and aversion of holy love from sin and wrong-doers. There is in the divine procedure even now and here, the manifestation of that aversion in punishment. 'The light of Israel becomes a flaming fire.'


              See full article:
              http://biblehub.com/library/maclaren...sm_in_fire.htm
              Last edited by foudroyant; 06-23-2014, 02:28 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                1. Why cite the Book of Mormon?
                Because it is an example of a view believing the Spirit and the fire are referring to the same thing. In my view neither that view nor the BoM are Biblical.
                2. Why can't the use of "and" ('kai' in Greek) be used epexegetically?
                Can you give a couple other supporting examples for this?

                It is my understanding that that conjunction typically refers to more than one thing. But were a "definite article" a "noun" the conjunction "kai" followed by a second "noun" without the article then both "nouns" refer to one thing.
                " the kingdom of the Christ and God." -- Ephesians 5:5. Where "the Christ" with the conjunction "kai" is being called "God."

                I am leaning towards the view held by Alexander MacLaren:
                But take one warning word in conclusion. The alternative for every man is to be baptized in the fire or to be consumed by it. The symbol of which we have been speaking sets forth the double thought of purifying and destruction. Nothing which we have said as to the former in the least weakens the completing truth that there is in it an under side of possible terror. One of the felicities of the emblem is its capacity to set forth this twofold idea. There is that in the divine nature which the Bible calls wrath, the necessary displeasure and aversion of holy love from sin and wrong-doers. There is in the divine procedure even now and here, the manifestation of that aversion in punishment. 'The light of Israel becomes a flaming fire.'

                See full article:
                http://biblehub.com/library/maclaren...sm_in_fire.htm
                That interpretation seems convoluted to me. I gave the references supporting the understanding I see. The only reference which can be suggested that the "Spirit" and the "fire" refer to the same thing is what appeared on Pentecost (Acts 2:3). And I do not see it to have any real supporting connection. Where ". . . now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. . . . _ . . . with fire: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." -- Luke 3:9, . . . 17. Seems explicit enough for me. (Revelation 21:7, 8.)

                Can you set these two views in contrast?
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. An example of 'kai' being used epexegetically is in John 3:5.
                  Vine: Some regard the kai, "and," in John 3:5 , as epexegetic, == "even," in which case the "water" would be emblematic of the Spirit, as in John 7:38 (cp. John 4:10,14)
                  http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=3285
                  2. How is MacLaren's view convoluted?

                  The same pillar of fire which gladdened the ranks of Israel as they camped by the Red Sea, shone baleful and terrible to the Egyptian hosts. The same Ark of the Covenant whose presence blessed the house of Obed-edom, and hallowed Zion, and saved Jerusalem, smote the Philistines, and struck down their bestial gods. Christ and His gospel even here hurt the men whom they do not save.
                  (See citation in Post #7).
                  Last edited by foudroyant; 07-08-2014, 02:07 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    1. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs only one time when a person is placed into the body of Christ (The Church). If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then that person is not a Christian.
                    Those in Acts 2:4 were already saved but it was this event that placed them into the body of Christ.

                    The following terms synonymously describe what the Holy Spirit does only once to a person upon entering the body of Christ/Church.
                    a. Fell (Acts 8:16; 10:44; 11:15)
                    b. Poured (Acts 10:45; Titus 3:6)
                    c. Received (Acts 2:38; 8:17; 10:47)
                    d. Baptized (Acts 1:5; 11:16; Romans 6:3, etc.)
                    *e. Filled (11:17; 15:8 cf. Acts 2:4)
                    f. Given (Acts 8:18; 11:17; 15:8)
                    g. Came (Acts 1:8; 19:6)
                    h. Clothed (Luke 24:49; Galatians 3:27)
                    i. Sealed (Ephesians 1:13)
                    So then what do you make of this:

                    19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.


                    And remember, that Acts also comes after the gospels:

                    20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”



                    ...just some thoughts to think about

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1. Acts 19 is in letter "g". I'm not really sure what you mean when you ask what I make of it. Please explain.
                      2. John 20 was addressed in Post #2 (part #5).
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 07-08-2014, 07:03 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        1. An example of 'kai' being used epexegetically is in John 3:5.
                        Vine: Some regard the kai, "and," in John 3:5 , as epexegetic, == "even," in which case the "water" would be emblematic of the Spirit, as in John 7:38 (cp. John 4:10,14)
                        http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=3285
                        At one time I understood John 3:5 (New Scofield Study Bible) in that way. But my understanding of the usage of kai shows that of water and of Spirit are two distinct births (v.6) in reply to Niicodemus' question (v.4). And as it is, there are 5 different interpretations as to the meaning of "water."

                        " . . . εξ υδατος και πνευματος . . . " . . . out of water and Spirit . . . v.5 see v.6 two births are qualified.

                        As to John 7:38, John 4:10, 14 also Revelation 22:17. That usage is not an issue with me. Since as I said, I once interpreted the "water" of John 3:5 in that way. But as I now believe I understand the grammar on the context of v.5 it cannot apply in that way. Note Vine noted, "Some regard . . . ." I do not.

                        Do you have another example which may explicitly support epexegetic usage of "kai?" If not, that is fine too. We at this point, on this point do not agree.



                        2. How is MacLaren's view convoluted?
                        It has to be explained, and even in that it is not explicit. Where the "you" whom John speaks to, whom Jesus will immerse, are both those who would be saved and the lost. The saved receive the Holy Spirit now in this life, and the lost will receive the lake of fire after the judgement.



                        The same pillar of fire which gladdened the ranks of Israel as they camped by the Red Sea, shone baleful and terrible to the Egyptian hosts. The same Ark of the Covenant whose presence blessed the house of Obed-edom, and hallowed Zion, and saved Jerusalem, smote the Philistines, and struck down their bestial gods. Christ and His gospel even here hurt the men whom they do not save.
                        (See citation in Post #7).
                        I do fail to see the connection to the Holy Spirit somehow being that fire (Matthew 3:11). How do you, in your understanding "connect the dots?"
                        Last edited by 37818; 07-09-2014, 10:47 PM.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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                        • #13
                          1. If you consult Danker or Thayer's lexicons they list how kai can be used epexegetically.
                          OK...I still think that in John 3:5 water refers to the Holy Spirit Himself.
                          2. I believe that kai is used epexegetically -> Holy Spirit, that is fire.
                          Last edited by foudroyant; 07-09-2014, 11:13 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                            So then what do you make of this:
                            19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
                            As foudroyant had explained,
                            g. Came (Acts 1:8; 19:6)
                            Acts 19:6 was an example of receiving the Holy Spirit using the term "Came." ". . . the Holy Spirit came on them, . . . "
                            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              1. Acts 19 is in letter "g". I'm not really sure what you mean when you ask what I make of it. Please explain.
                              2. John 20 was addressed in Post #2 (part #5).
                              Acts 19 is an example of where belief and the 'baptism' of the Holy Spirit are noted as separate events. It seems to me that the explanations in the post assume dispensations. In other words the explanations don't necessarily explore it exegetically, but theologically (based on prior theology).


                              John 20 seems to me much the same. Thomas not being there seems an odd reason to assume that they really didn't receive the Holy Spirit. The tenses just don't seem to match up with a 'prophetic' stand point.


                              (please note I am not one saying that people are not sealed with the Holy Spirit when they have faith)

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