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  • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    Hebrews 2:2
    For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward . . . .
    For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Hebrews 7,12 ASV)
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • At the time described in John 8, there wasn't any change in the priesthood.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        At the time described in John 8, there wasn't any change in the priesthood.
        Do you imagine that we are only discussing John 8? Do you now acknowledge that there can be a change in the law?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • Because I don't have any interest in discussing with you what the law is today until you first admit that Moses's law was holy and that Christ did not violate it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            Because I don't have any interest in discussing with you what the law is today until you first admit that Moses's law was holy and that Christ did not violate it.
            I have never denied that Moses' law was holy and have explicitly affirmed it, in agreement with St Paul. In this very thread, I have already said to you directly that Christ did not violate the law, but that he interpreted, perfected, and fulfilled it. You even quoted me saying that.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
              No imagination required. Merely reading comprehension...

              "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

              Imo, we learn from other peoples mistakes and on reflection of such our own mistakes. Possibly why all of civilised society these days (whether Christian, Muslim or Jew) rejects Moses' extremes and recognises Moses' and David's failures.

              Question: In your opinion, why did YHWH choose as Israel's messiah, a statutory rapists (under God's law but under Moses' law merely an adulterer) and murderer (under civil law but not necessarily under Moses' law) such as David, who usurped (over-rode) Moses' Levitical-Cohen system, had himself made highpriest and had himself worshipped in equivalence to God (according to scripture cp. 1Ch 29:20)?
              Yep. You're reading the OT through your bias, no question.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • Originally posted by Robrecht
                I believe Jesus sometimes contradicted the Law, in the sense that he improved upon it, fulfilled it, but did not violate it.
                Contradicting it and violating it are the same thing.

                Regarding the change in the law, you cannot use this passage to interpret Jesus's ministry because Jesus operated prior to any change whatsoever. Regarding the change that we experience now, it is only the ceremonial law which has changed, not the moral law. Paul makes the distinction between ceremonial law versus moral law in the following passages:

                1 Corinthians 9
                20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ)[.]

                Romans 5
                13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

                Romans 2
                12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  Contradicting it and violating it are the same thing.
                  Untrue. Unless you are denying Jesus' authority.

                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  Regarding the change in the law, you cannot use this passage to interpret Jesus's ministry because Jesus operated prior to any change whatsoever.
                  So when Jesus made pronouncements about the law, for example, about divorce, do you not accept his contradicting Moses? Or do you not think it took effect until later?

                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  Regarding the change that we experience now, it is only the ceremonial law which has changed, not the moral law. Paul makes the distinction between ceremonial law versus moral law in the following passages:

                  1 Corinthians 9
                  20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ)[.]

                  Romans 5
                  13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

                  Romans 2
                  12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law
                  Are you considering marriage law to be ceremonial law and not closely related to morality?
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • FYI: 'Contradiction' is not 'violation'. Teaching a contradiction would in fact also be a violation - but merely misstating does not mean violating.

                    We now return you to your thread already in progress....
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Yep. You're reading the OT through your bias, no question.
                      So you deny the explicit statement of scripture (1Ch 29:20) that David was worshiped in equivalence to God?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                        So you deny the explicit statement of scripture (1Ch 29:20) that David was worshiped in equivalence to God?
                        I don't think the context implies equivalence. They went on to sacrifice to God, but not to David.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          I don't think the context implies equivalence. They went on to sacrifice to God, but not to David.
                          Yeah. People tended to bow down to kings. Most kings, however, were not viewed as deity.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Yeah. People tended to bow down to kings. Most kings, however, were not viewed as deity.
                            Actually, we just snicker every time Cerealman declares himself king,....



                            Sorry, couldn't resist...
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • All that passage shows is that the word "worship" does not necessarily imply divinity.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                I don't think the context implies equivalence. They went on to sacrifice to God, but not to David.
                                Very true = vs21. But notice what happens afterwards...

                                In any case the fact remains that the text (vs20) in the original Hebrew, has it that the King and YHWH were worshiped equivalently. I have encountered one obscure translation that had God worshiped and obeisance given to the King. The reason I assume that that translation is obscure is that it is not supported by the original text!

                                I'm a little prejudiced because of European history and the subjection underwent by the masses as a result of feudalism, and the chatelisation of the masses...which (as with slavery) was all based on Moses' thinking. I try to take the broader picture, which is why I reject Moses and esteem (to the best of my ability) to be Christ like...
                                Last edited by apostoli; 06-24-2014, 07:12 PM.

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