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Jude 1:9

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  • Jude 1:9

    I find Jude to be one of the most fascinating books in the New Testament, maybe because some of it seems so obscure and difficult to understand. This verse has always puzzled me:

    Jude 1:9 -
    But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    I have to admit I'm not sure what this is all about, and how we are supposed to apply it in our own lives. Paul didn't seem to have a problem calling out people for exactly how they were acting. So what is the difference between that and what Jude is talking about?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Here is a commentary about it. Yes, I know it John MacArthur and that nobody but MelMak and I like him, but it's pretty good all the same.

    https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqna...gelic-conflict

    Jude demonstrated the seriousness of the apostates’ irreverence by contrasting their behavior with that of Michael the archangel. As God’s most powerful angel and the protector of God’s people (cf. Dan. 10:13–21; 12:1), Michael did not demonstrate irreverence when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses. Michael knew that God could grant him power over Satan (cf. Rev. 12:7–9), yet he also understood that he was not to act beyond God’s prescribed limits. Out of respect for Satan’s status and power as the highest created being, Michael did not dare pronounce against him (Satan) a railing judgment as if he possessed sovereign dominion over him. In fact, he did nothing more than utter the words, “The Lord rebuke you!”


    It continues past what I've quoted here.

    Please remember to read the verse in context with the verses before and afterwards. It's important to do so.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I always think about those "spiritual" people who boast about rebuking Satan in Jesus' name....

      To me, it's kinda like - I don't have diplomatic relations with Satan. Just like Germany did not have diplomatic relations with the US in either Great War.

      I don't speak to Satan, I don't listen to him, and if the powerful arch angel Michael didn't even dispute with him, who am I to... I let the Lord handle that.

      (And there's some background here from the non-canonical book of Enoch, I think)
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Similar to what Mossy says, I think the key word in the passage is condemn. Michael doesn't take God's right of judgment to himself. He leaves final judgment to God.

        I think on the whole, this is what Paul follows. He does call out people for wrong behavior but doesn't seem to pass a final judgement on them. I try to practice by not declaring someone not a Christian. It's all too common to do and I think it's wrong.

        I suggest a couple related verses to this are Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand of fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand." and John 21:22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

        Comment


        • #5
          A few things...

          -- I'm going to quibble with J-Mac's opinion for being a bit internally inconsistent: He refers to Michael as "God’s most powerful angel," and then refers to satan's "status and power as the highest created being." Aside from that seeming inconsistency, he also seems to be presupposing the common but dubious view that Isa. 14 and Eze. 28 refer to satan. But on the whole, those are probably relatively minor complaints.

          -- It's fairly well known that there are many overlaps between this passage and portions of 2 Pet., and they should probably be considered in parallel.

          -- Keener notes that Jewish literature and tradition forms the background for many of the allusions in the passage. He specifically cites 1 Enoch, some of the books of the Apocrypha, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

          -- This does seem to be one of the few passages that actually identifies satan as a rebel angel.

          -- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings. So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • #6
            What I want to know is why was Satan disputing Michael about Moses's body?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              What I want to know is why was Satan disputing Michael about Moses's body?
              Supposedly because God took Moses and buried him on a mountain, location unknown to the people, or the people would worship at his grave.
              According to (I think it was the book of Enoch - or was it "The Assumption of Moses") Satan wanted the bones to keep him from being resurrected because Moses was a murderer (or something like that).
              Origen had mentioned "The Assumption of Moses" in the third century.
              Jude also mentions Cain, who killed his brother, along with Balaam's error and Korah's rebellion - all four of these were from the Pentateuch.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                -- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings. So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?
                This does raise some questions that I've never considered before..
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                  -- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings.
                  Can you elaborate on that? I'm not seeing that way at all.

                  So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?
                  I'm not following this at all.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Can you elaborate on that? I'm not seeing that way at all.

                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    -- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings. So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?
                    I'm not following this at all.
                    Let me try to elaborate. I went to a church for awhile we some of the people practiced this.

                    I think this is a misapplication of the passage which describes us as being seating in heavenly places with Christ. I think some people believe because we are positionally seated with Christ, we have the power of Christ. This might also come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I'm not sure what power and authority I will have in eternity. I think they are premature on claiming future power as being theirs now. And frankly, they may not even have it in eternity.

                    Also I don't think they realize the power and dread they would feel if they really encountered a demon or Satan himself. They would .

                    This may be more show than substance. However I will give them credit for recognizing that Satan and his demons are working in the world.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                      Let me try to elaborate. I went to a church for awhile we some of the people practiced this.

                      I think this is a misapplication of the passage which describes us as being seating in heavenly places with Christ. I think some people believe because we are positionally seated with Christ, we have the power of Christ. This might also come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I'm not sure what power and authority I will have in eternity. I think they are premature on claiming future power as being theirs now. And frankly, they may not even have it in eternity.

                      Also I don't think they realize the power and dread they would feel if they really encountered a demon or Satan himself. They would .

                      This may be more show than substance. However I will give them credit for recognizing that Satan and his demons are working in the world.
                      But this is not helpful. I am literate enough to realize that the "literalest" reading is usually NOT the best reading, but that fact does not help me to understand how we ARE to understand passages such as the ones in Eph., or, say, 1 John 4:17.

                      The disciples were given authority over "all" the power of the enemy way back in Luke 9. At Pentecost, the Spirit came upon those gathered, as the first example of an experience promised to all believers. We Pentecostals see clear parallels between the Spirit coming upon Jesus in Luke 4, and on the Church in Acts 2. We generally understand that all of Jesus's ministry was done in the power of the Spirit. We understand that we are not Deity, but we see many parallels with Christ in terms of being born of God, born of the Spirit, heirs of God, fellow-heirs with Christ, brothers and sisters of Jesus. We understand we don't yet have the full inheritance, only the down-payment and first-fruits; but while on earth, apart from the brief Transfiguration, even Jesus Himself was not in His glorified immortal form.

                      And even leaving all that aside, it's not immediately obvious how we "resist" the devil in Jas. 4, and "struggle" against him in Eph. 6, and yet treat him with respect.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Nationalist.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'll also note that Luther was decidedly less than respectful, claiming, "I am of a different mind ten times in the course of a day. But I resist the devil, and often it is with a fart that I chase him away." From here.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Nationalist.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Perhaps Jesus's statement referred specifically to the original disciplines and only them. I wonder if anybody takes that position.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            Perhaps Jesus's statement referred specifically to the original disciplines and only them. I wonder if anybody takes that position.
                            Yes, and it's not uncommon to interpret many of the promises and instructions in the various forms of the Great Commission and Pentecost accounts as applying only to the Apostles. I don't think that's tenable.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Nationalist.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              But this is not helpful. I am literate enough to realize that the "literalest" reading is usually NOT the best reading, but that fact does not help me to understand how we ARE to understand passages such as the ones in Eph., or, say, 1 John 4:17.

                              The disciples were given authority over "all" the power of the enemy way back in Luke 9. At Pentecost, the Spirit came upon those gathered, as the first example of an experience promised to all believers. We Pentecostals see clear parallels between the Spirit coming upon Jesus in Luke 4, and on the Church in Acts 2. We generally understand that all of Jesus's ministry was done in the power of the Spirit. We understand that we are not Deity, but we see many parallels with Christ in terms of being born of God, born of the Spirit, heirs of God, fellow-heirs with Christ, brothers and sisters of Jesus. We understand we don't yet have the full inheritance, only the down-payment and first-fruits; but while on earth, apart from the brief Transfiguration, even Jesus Himself was not in His glorified immortal form.

                              And even leaving all that aside, it's not immediately obvious how we "resist" the devil in Jas. 4, and "struggle" against him in Eph. 6, and yet treat him with respect.
                              Thanks responding. I understand better what you are saying.

                              Taking the Jude passage, it is a stretch to say Michael is treating him with respect. I think it may be more Michael is avoiding being accused of being a false witness or taking God's right of judgment onto himself. In other words, Michael is avoiding committing a sin rather than having respect for Satan.

                              I'm not sure there is any Biblical passage that says we have treat Satan with respect in the sense of giving him courteous or preserving his dignity. Maybe it's respect in the sense that Satan has a lot of power and if we're not sheltered in God, we're in deep trouble because our power in ourselves is woefully insufficient to resist him.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment

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