There very well may be. But even if you want to take the throne or chair metaphorically, I don't see how it would apply to the people who were executed with Jesus. They weren't ruling. They weren't feasting. They weren't honored.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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An objection against Marian devotion dealt with.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThere very well may be. But even if you want to take the throne or chair metaphorically, I don't see how it would apply to the people who were executed with Jesus. They weren't ruling. They weren't feasting. They weren't honored.
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”Last edited by Paprika; 05-18-2014, 02:30 PM.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostRight. This only makes sense if you read the entire gospel narratives: the kingdom of God is not like the kingdom of the world; the first shall be last; the crown of the King is a crown of thorns; it's not about self-aggrandisement and power grabs but about suffering and self-giving love.
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Originally posted by ObsidianIf you guys can truly read that passage and glean from it that Mary automatically sits at Jesus's right hand because she is his physical mother, then you are both fools.
A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIf you guys can truly read that passage and glean from it that Mary automatically sits at Jesus's right hand because she is his physical mother, then you are both fools.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe gospels and the letters are primarily about Jesus and Christian Fellowships. Again I'm not going to defend a Mariology based upon Sola Scriptura. While I think even a highly developed Mariology is completely consistent, even if you have no other sources, I don't think the Bible alone is enough to substantiate all of it in its entirety. All I'm doing in this thread is dealing with one sort of objection I encounter when I give a particular typology.
Then there's the fact that one not need Sola Scriptura to at least see that there is an apparent* contradiction to the idea of Mary as our mediator to Christ, and the fact that Jesus is to be the only mediator we have.
The exact same way that you can pray for me, and in some sense expect to have your prayer make an impact of sort. We know that prayers are effecacious, we don't merely do them as symbolic gestures, or out of pure submission. Its true that God isn't a coin slot machine, but he also made it clear that if we asked something of Him which was consistent with His will He would grant it.
It seems that even as early as Tertullian there were those that believed that those who have passed on before us can't hear us.
The article I am quoting from is here.
There's also clear passages that God more often listens to the prayers of holy and righteous people. If Mary, who is arguably the holiest person ever to have been created by God, can hear our prayers, then she can mediate our prayers to Christ on account of the grace given to her by God.
I won't deal with this too much, as nothing here is really a problem. I'm also a bit confused by what you write, as you start out agreeing that no woman is as blessed as Mary (and arguably no other man but Jesus I presume), you then seem to... disagree with Jesus? We don't hold her to be the highest of all women simple because she bore Christ, it wasn't the act of being Theotokos (Mother of God), that gave her that title. Among other things she suffered intensely and was extremely obedient, being among the three of the disciples who didn't flee during the crucifixion. The prophet Simeon said that her heart would be pierced by a sword, and he was likely referring to the day she'd watch Jesus suffer and die. Since the place in Heaven you get is proportional to what you gave up for Christ during your life, her place is arguably the highest for that reason since I'm very much sure she'd have taken his place on the cross if it was at all possible for her.
So if you want to talk about faith in her Son, she's definitely got it. Unlike the disciples she had full trust in her Sons abilities during the wedding at Cana. She didn't always understand Jesus, but that's not a sin, and she never talks back to His rebukes. Then again even during that scene He did do what asked Him to do.
Out of all the women in the world God chose her, to teach Jesus how to talk, walk and even pray to God. Even if you're not a Roman Catholic I'm not sure what other Christian in the world, even Paul, Peter and John, you'd place higher than her.
Mark 3:30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.
34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”
The way I understand it, this passage implies that all of them, including Mary, were thinking that what Jesus was saying was crazy.
Mark 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
Is this the what you were talking about by saying that she didn't always understand Him?
As for the rest, I wouldn't put any follower of Jesus above her as far as honor. I still don't think it's right to pray to her, or to anyone else other than God.
I'll be back on this one because its a fair point that I need to address a bit more. As far as I remember all the mothers of the kings in Jesus ancestry became mother queens, which is Mary not being bestowed something similar albeit spiritually strikes me as off.
*I know that things that appear contradictory aren't always so. I'm trying to be more clear in my posts, so I thought I would make a notice of this point.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostStill, I would think that something this important, and something that touches on the topic at hand in 1 Timothy would at minimum be acknowledged if it's so important.
The idea here is that that all the teachings about her does exist as sacred tradition, all the teachings that weren't put down in the Bible. The evaluation of that can't be separated from the question of apostolic succession. So rather than having this discussion, I'd rather defend against one of the objections I hear about her.
Then there's the fact that one not need Sola Scriptura to at least see that there is an apparent* contradiction to the idea of Mary as our mediator to Christ, and the fact that Jesus is to be the only mediator we have.
And try reading Timothy again, here let me quote you a passage, here's the passages preceding that quote:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 (ESV)
"1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
So what is happening when I'm praying on your behalf? I'm not saying that I fulfill a unique role here, however if I carry your intentions to God, in some sense I'm mediating on your behalf. Same when we pray for our country, or for people going to abortion mills. If someone is an even greater Christian it seems their prayers would be graced more. If Mary is given a unique position to pray for us even more so, and is the highest rank in Heaven, then even more so. This doesn't cover all the ideas we have about Mary sure, but I hope you can see the soundness of it.
I have no reason to believe that dead Saints can hear our prayers at all.
If anything I think it's too close to the prohibited act of seeking out the dead.
It seems that even as early as Tertullian there were those that believed that those who have passed on before us can't hear us.
The article I am quoting from is here.
Wouldn't the answer be the same regardless of how righteous the person was if it aligned with God's will? I would say it's the content of the prayer that's important, not who's praying it. Even Jesus prayed that He might be able to avoid the crucifixion, but obviously that wasn't God's will.
We're talking about people who are completely righteous before God. There's not a single stain of sin on them clouding their minds. They're grace filled, perfected human beings enjoying the beatific vision. It seems to me that they wouldn't stop praying for people until there's no more reason to do so, and that won't happen until the end of time.
I don't know where you get the idea that I'm disagreeing with Jesus.
"Then there's the fact that while Mary was blessed above all women, Jesus still didn't seem to give her the kind of honor being ascribed to her by the RCC. "
I got confused about this, because I don't think Jesus in anyway says that Mary wasn't blessed. I misread you as implying that he meant this, but that you started out by asserting that she was the most blessed woman in existence. That's why I said I was confused about it, and I'm still not sure what you were arguing for.
I'm saying that if she is as important as the RCC seems to make her, why didn't Jesus mention it here.
And the gospels do have a very, very high view of Mary. She's the only person to have ever been saluted by an angel. Go back and compare her reaction to Zacharias, he fell down and cowered the moment he saw the angel, as did all the prophets, Mary first became afraid when she was told 'The Lord is with thee', likely because she knew what happened to the patriarchs who was told the same. She knew she would have to suffer.
Mark 3:30-34
She neither says nor does anything in it. We do know that she was a believer in her son, because she was there all the way through the crucifixion along with John. And she was sitting in the upper room with the apostles praying with them continuously when they received the Holy Spirit. However I'm not sure if you want me to defend her sinlessness here.
As for the rest, I wouldn't put any follower of Jesus above her as far as honor.
*I know that things that appear contradictory aren't always so. I'm trying to be more clear in my posts, so I thought I would make a notice of this point.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI stated on this exact thread that I don't agree with devotion to Mary, and you think I'm arguing that the passage you cited implies that she does?A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI'll do a little bit of setup before I get to the point.
Occasionally when I talk to protestants about whether or not Mary should be venerated as Catholics do, I usually point to the places in the Bible where we have some reason to see that God did give us an example of the position that she'd possess.
I never try to give a positive defence of traditional views about Mary from the Bible alone, since at the end its ultimately a matter of tradition and doctrinal authority. What I can do to someone who asserts Sola Scriptura, is that I can defend some aspects of it, this usually amounts to little more than defending that Mary is the Mother of God. I can also point to biblical passages that lend credence to traditional teachings.
In the Old Testament for instance you have Solomon seated in power, with his mother Bathsheba seated at his right hand as mediator.
1 Kings 2:19-21 (ESV)
19 So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her and bowed down to her. Then he sat on his throne and had a seat brought for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.” 21 She said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah your brother as his wife.”
Song of Solomon 3:11 (ESV)
Go out, O daughters of Zion,
and look upon King Solomon,
with the crown with which his mother crowned him
on the day of his wedding,
on the day of the gladness of his heart.
Since a lot of Christology is given in the OT by it having analogies that preshadow it, and especially Solomon is given as a parallel, I don't think its unreasonable to see the role of Bathsheba as intercessor and mediator between the king of Solomon, as possible indicating the relationship Mary would have between Christ and man. We do see similarities: she's crowned queen along with her son, Solomon didn't say no to Bathsheba just as Jesus never says no to Mary, people bring requests to Solomon and she succours them, etc...
The objection then is that Christ, since he's all-knowing, wouldn't have any need of an intercessor. King Solomon might, in that he couldn't personally consider all of the problems of state on his own, and Bathsheba could handle the things he couldn't, and bring particular issues to him. To Christ, Mary is completely superfluous, and perhaps even detracts a bit, since instead of praying to her to intercede for us with Him we could pray to Him on our own.
However a person who makes this objection doesn't make it consistently enough: To Christ, the Bible is completely superfluous; if he wanted he could just impart divinely inspired all the knowledge needed into the head of everyone walking around. To Christ, theology of any stripe is unnecessary, again he could simple have Christianity one large mystical experience. To Christ, prayers aren't needed, he already knows our hearts and what we want. The particular way He's chosen to teach us about the Kingdom of God, all go above and beyond what's needed and has much more to do with what is appropriate.
These are all only done by us because we have reasons to suspect that they are either things he's commanded (pray, worship), respect (the bible is authoritative), or something that we need since we aren't given mystical experiences (natural reasoning based studies of theology). Presumable all these things ultimate serve to glorify God more, if perhaps by distancing us from Him we're more aware of His kingly stature and our own lowliness in comparison.
If Christ has installed Mary as someone who in Heaven get special grace to mediate for us on our behalf, I don't think anyone can object to it on the ground because its not really needed.
If you take it consistently to the end point our own salvation isn't needed."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSo, because one mother in one instance in Scripture acts (unsuccessfully) as an intercessor you're arguing that it follows that Jesus' mother must necessarily also act as an intercessor? Did I understand you correctly?
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Yeah, that's kinda how I read the OP but it's inconsistent with the title or some of his subsequent responses. I wanna be sure I get what he's saying here.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSo, because one mother in one instance in Scripture acts (unsuccessfully) as an intercessor you're arguing that it follows that Jesus' mother must necessarily also act as an intercessor? Did I understand you correctly?
"Why would God want us to pray to Mary, when we can go straight to Him, its not nescessary. Bathsheba might have acted as an intercessor, but that's because Solomon isn't omniscient."
I object to the idea that because its not necessary, then that's a good reason to reject Mary as an intercessor on our behalf. I wanted to give the usual situation where I find people giving me that response. I think that was a mistake, and I'll try to avoid things like that in future posts.
And as I've said in the OP, in my response to Paprika and in my response to Cerebrum, I don't base Maryology on the bible alone. This was just an interesting typology that I sometimes bring up around protestants.
However when I do that I've heard a bad response "Even if Bathsheba would have acted as an intercessor into her role as queen mother, that's only because this was a limited human situation. Christ is unlimited, he doesn't need Mary to intercede for us."
But that's a really bad argument since it goes for just about anything we humans do to get us closer to God. Whether its praying, reading scripture, studying theology, posting on theologyweb, going to church, etc... in principle none of that is necessary. God could have arranged it otherwise.
It was this argument alone I wanted to discuss, and I thought it would be helpful to give the context for the responses.
So far no one has actually said whether they think the objection is good or bad. Hopefully its just bad, and glossed over since people here agree with me, and therefore they're discussing the context: the queen mother Bathsheba as a typology of Mary's role to her own Son.Last edited by Leonhard; 05-18-2014, 06:31 PM.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostHe's saying that since there's a (strained) parallel here between the portrayal of Bathsheba and certain myths about Mary, somehow the parallel is a prefiguration and lends support to the myth.
I'm not gonna copy paste it anymore. This is getting out of hand.
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