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An objection against Marian devotion dealt with.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Eh, He did it 'cause she wouldn't take 'no' for an answer.
    All the more reason to enlist her aid, yes?
    And she knew to ask - the groom most probably wouldn't have known that Jesus could do anything about it. Not a great parallel...
    You (protestants in general) were looking for something from scripture. It's not a perfect parallel, but it's not entirely inapt IMO either.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • #62
      The mediation is undoubtedly influenced by Isis, who was also a mediator and queen mother to the people. It's simple. When Christianity was established as the state religion, the church combated pagan beliefs by replacing pagan iconographic images with Christian images. Thus the two intermingled.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        It occurs to me that scripture does record an instance where Mary successfully interceded for someone - namely, the hosts of the wedding at Cana.
        I think there are two senses of intercession that needs to be analysed here:
        1) Person A prays for person B without B asking A to pray for him
        2) Person A prays for person B due to B asking A to pray for him

        Now, the Scriptural evidence you cite is only evidence for 1); as Teallaura points out, there is no evidence of the groom having had asked Mary to ask Jesus for help.

        Hence, there is no difference in this case between Mary and another who made a request to Jesus for another eg Jairus for his daughter, the Roman centurion for his servant and so on. Thus, this example is hardly support for the doctrine that Mary is in some special position to intercede for us if and when we ask her to do so.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by seanD View Post
          The mediation is undoubtedly influenced by Isis, who was also a mediator and queen mother to the people.
          Isis was considered a god in her own right in a polytheistic worldview, not a mediator with the one God.
          It's simple. When Christianity was established as the state religion, the church combated pagan beliefs by replacing pagan iconographic images with Christian images. Thus the two intermingled.
          Both prayers to Mary and icons antedate the toleration of Christianity by a century (if one discounts tradition), let alone the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. Do you think the images of the cherubim on the temple veil were pagan too?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            I think there are two senses of intercession that needs to be analysed here:
            1) Person A prays for person B without B asking A to pray for him
            2) Person A prays for person B due to B asking A to pray for him

            Now, the Scriptural evidence you cite is only evidence for 1); as Teallaura points out, there is no evidence of the groom having had asked Mary to ask Jesus for help.
            There's also no evidence the groom did not ask for help; the episode is undoubtedly compressed. However, IMO you're making an unnecessary distinction. If someone is willing to intercede without being asked, do you think they'd refuse an actual request for intercession?
            Hence, there is no difference in this case between Mary and another who made a request to Jesus for another eg Jairus for his daughter, the Roman centurion for his servant and so on. Thus, this example is hardly support for the doctrine that Mary is in some special position to intercede for us if and when we ask her to do so.
            If you ignore ANE precedent, yes. Do you have some reason for doing so, other than preconceived bias?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #66
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              There's also no evidence the groom did not ask for help; the episode is undoubtedly compressed. However, IMO you're making an unnecessary distinction. If someone is willing to intercede without being asked, do you think they'd refuse an actual request for intercession?

              If you ignore ANE precedent, yes. Do you have some reason for doing so, other than preconceived bias?
              What's at question is that not only is Mary someone who can intercede for us, but that she is in some more exalted position compared to many others. I thought that noting that the extract from John supports neither would be uncontroversial. It appears I am mistaken.

              Do, however, feel free to present any ANE precedent that you see relevant to the issue.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Isis was considered a god in her own right in a polytheistic worldview, not a mediator with the one God.

                Both prayers to Mary and icons antedate the toleration of Christianity by a century (if one discounts tradition), let alone the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. Do you think the images of the cherubim on the temple veil were pagan too?
                We would expect there to be slight deviations. There are deviations between Isis and Diana worship but the iconographic assimilation is obvious to historians. The point is that none of the tradition is found in early Judeo-Christianity. None of the holidays, none of the sacraments, none of the saintly iconography, therefore, we can accurately assume these elements had outside influence. This is one area that the mythicists are unfortunately right. The problem is that they're confusing first century Judeo-Christianity (from which the NT is derived) and establishment Christianity of the later centuries. The reason the infusion began centuries later is because Christianity didn't become mainstream in the empire until later. I mean, I don't usually harp on this because the infusion of these practices in the RCC is so obvious that I just assume an intelligent person can see it. I can respect a person that admits it but doesn't care, than a person that outrightly denies the obvious. To me it's like Christmas. We all know the origins of Christmas is pagan to the core, but IMO it's cool as long as Christians acknowledge this fact. When they try and deny it is when it becomes a problem.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  What's at question is that not only is Mary someone who can intercede for us, but that she is in some more exalted position compared to many others. I thought that noting that the extract from John supports neither would be uncontroversial. It appears I am mistaken.
                  I repeat, if someone is willing to intercede without being asked, do you think they'd refuse an actual request for intercession?

                  Mary is Jesus' mother. As such, she is closer to him, at least in some sense, than many others. I wasn't using the passage to support that idea; I thought that would be prima facie obvious.
                  Do, however, feel free to present any ANE precedent that you see relevant to the issue.
                  Again? In any monarchy, those related to the monarch - give or take likely claimants to the throne - are going to have more influence with the king than strangers/those of lesser rank. This is especially true in collectivist societies, where one of the favors a patron may give his or her client is access to the king.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I repeat, if someone is willing to intercede without being asked, do you think they'd refuse an actual request for intercession?
                    That someone is willing to intercede for one other party without being asked on one issue does not necessarily generalise.

                    Again? In any monarchy, those related to the monarch - give or take likely claimants to the throne - are going to have more influence with the king than strangers/those of lesser rank. This is especially true in collectivist societies, where one of the favors a patron may give his or her client is access to the king.
                    I am rather wary of applying such sweeping generalisations to the kingdom of God. There are two reasons. The first is that Jesus emphasised that his kingdom was not like the kingdoms of this world. In private, this was expressed in many cryptic parables to subvert the audience's expectations of the kingdom of God. In private - both to his disciples and to Pilate, Jesus expressed very clearly that his kingdom does not do power the way other kingdoms do.

                    The second is Jesus' own relativisation of his blood relatives as his family as opposed to his followers:

                    And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” (and parallels)
                    As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
                    Therefore, though Mary is singular in being the physical mother of Jesus, I submit that it has not been demonstrated that this singular physical status translates to any elevated status in the kingdom of God.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      All the more reason to enlist her aid, yes?
                      NO! Think that one through - what does it imply about Jesus as intercessor. Hint: you're calling the truth of Scripture into question.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig
                      You (protestants in general) were looking for something from scripture. It's not a perfect parallel, but it's not entirely inapt IMO either.
                      It's too weak to support the point - 'vaguely similar' does not equal 'proof of same'.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        It's too weak to support the point - 'vaguely similar' does not equal 'proof of same'.
                        Certainly not on its own Teal, but I never said I'd demonstrate this notion from scripture, anymore than anyone would prove that Jesus is the Son of God by seeing Him foreshadowed in David.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Certainly not on its own Teal, but I never said I'd demonstrate this notion from scripture, anymore than anyone would prove that Jesus is the Son of God by seeing Him foreshadowed in David.
                          I haven't forgotten the other.

                          This is so weak that it more undermines than supports - I know you're using extra-Scriptural supports but that requires that others accept them - when we don't, using Scripture in such a strained manner makes the entire case look shaky. Not saying it is - just saying that you (general) need to pull stronger supports when trying to make a case like this.

                          You and OBP see some validity here that frankly, I don't. Even if I accepted the case as genuinely parallel - which it isn't - an example of intercessory activity doesn't establish a pattern, let alone a need. Step Three needs a heck of a lot of work.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            NO! Think that one through - what does it imply about Jesus as intercessor. Hint: you're calling the truth of Scripture into question.
                            Hint in return. I can't read your mind, and I deal with many other discussions than this one (here, and elsewhere). IOW, I'm not following you here. Please be more explicit.
                            It's too weak to support the point - 'vaguely similar' does not equal 'proof of same'.
                            You're asking scripture to bear the entire point, which is unreasonable. Scripture does not pretend to give us everything; the gospels are limited snapshots of Jesus' life and ministry, Acts doesn't even mention most of the apostles (let alone discuss their acts in detail), and the epistles pretty much dealt with problems as they arose. What I do know is that I just visited a myrrh-streaming icon of Mary, through which multitudes of healings have occurred in just the past 3.5 years since it began streaming. Stage 4 breast cancer doesn't go away overnight. People with a brain aneurism don't go from a coma to fully recovered with no effects in a matter of minutes (that was a Protestant). People who drop dead of a heart attack, whom the nurses present have declared hopeless after attempted CPR, don't suddenly start breathing and singing a Marian hymn when a drop of myrrh lands on him (no lingering effects there either). A man's malady isn't suddenly cured at home at the exact moment his wife is anointed with myrrh at the church (how's that for proof marriage makes two people one?). Girls disfigured in a dog attack (half her upper lip was ripped off) deal with the disfigurement the rest of their lives, not have it disappear overnight after being anointed with the myrrh (she was a wiccan, and this was her first time in a church; she's now a catechumen). This and more is why I don't care that the case for Marian (and other saintly) intercession is not explicitly laid out in scripture. Let God work as He wills, already!

                            /soapbox
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #74
                              Incidentally, the listing of the types of miracles as described in OBP's post here, as well as what he mentioned in my other thread, about the weeping icons... there are so many reports from diverse Christian populations. I think these serve as a strong practical argument against the "RCC the only real church" type of thing I was getting at in my other thread. God does not seem to limit his work to one particular group of Christians.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                This is so weak that it more undermines than supports - I know you're using extra-Scriptural supports but that requires that others accept them - when we don't, using Scripture in such a strained manner makes the entire case look shaky. Not saying it is - just saying that you (general) need to pull stronger supports when trying to make a case like this.
                                Since that wasn't the object of my thread, I didn't feel the need to. The object was to address an awful argument that keeps coming up. I heard it often enough that I felt it needed to be addressed. It is a poor argument, no one here focuses on it, neither RBerman or you for that matter. Which means its merit less. There's not really much more for me to do now, except perhaps defend the parallel, but I wouldn't do that on its own, it would just be one brick in a large comprehensive case and discussing it can't be separated from apostolic authority.

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