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Eyewitness testimony: Fatima

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    It wasn't doctrine and Mary didn't give orders. What she asked for specifically, was that we'd do penance for our sins, fast, pray the rosary every day adding a small prayer between the decades (the rosary consists of three sets of five decades: each decade consists of one Our Father, and ten Hail Mary's with devout meditation on a particular mystery of the life (joyful mysteries), death (sorrowful mysteries) and resurrection (glorious mysteries)). She also asked us to consecrate ourselves to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, through her Immaculate Heart and she asked the bishops and the pope to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, promising that if all of this was done then Russia would be converted.
    As an Orthodox Christian, I find this a little weird. The Russian Orthodox are already quite devoted to the Theotokos.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #77
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      As an Orthodox Christian, I find this a little weird. The Russian Orthodox are already quite devoted to the Theotokos.
      There's always the possibility that she was referring to the schism between the Russian Orthodox and the Catholic Church being healed. However I think the most common interpretation was that her warnings were about the rise of Communism. That's how I tend to read it. The visions occured from May to October. In November Lenin arose to power. She might have given the laity a chance to fast, pray and do penance, so that her supplications could halt the progress of Communism. If it had spread worldwide, then being a Christian would have been terrible hard. There would have been persecution everywhere.

      Communism in Russia disintegrated, and we didn't get a nuclear war. While it might not have been the miraculous conversion that would have happened if people in general had followed her advice, and Russia had been quickly consecrated (John Paul the II finally did it), at least it happened, which is what she promised "My immaculate heart will triumph in the end."

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        There's always the possibility that she was referring to the schism between the Russian Orthodox and the Catholic Church being healed. However I think the most common interpretation was that her warnings were about the rise of Communism. That's how I tend to read it. The visions occured from May to October. In November Lenin arose to power. She might have given the laity a chance to fast, pray and do penance, so that her supplications could halt the progress of Communism. If it had spread worldwide, then being a Christian would have been terrible hard. There would have been persecution everywhere.

        Communism in Russia disintegrated, and we didn't get a nuclear war. While it might not have been the miraculous conversion that would have happened if people in general had followed her advice, and Russia had been quickly consecrated (John Paul the II finally did it), at least it happened, which is what she promised "My immaculate heart will triumph in the end."
        How did JPII consecrate Russia?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          How did JPII consecrate Russia?
          I'm not sure, as far as I know what was asked for was that the bishops would in union with pope John Paul the II say a particular prayer, offering up Russia to her Immaculate Heart. After some exchanges with Lucia, eventually what was asked for was done.

          It does make you wonder how you consecrate an entire country... my own primitive understanding gives me an image of priests flying larger bomber planes showering the country sides with holy water. Even this would probably take a while to cover all of Russia, so something spiritual was probably done. Its certainly not consecrated in the sense that all of Russia is one large monastery now (though that would have been impressive to see).

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            I'm not sure, as far as I know what was asked for was that the bishops would in union with pope John Paul the II say a particular prayer, offering up Russia to her Immaculate Heart. After some exchanges with Lucia, eventually what was asked for was done.

            It does make you wonder how you consecrate an entire country... my own primitive understanding gives me an image of priests flying larger bomber planes showering the country sides with holy water. Even this would probably take a while to cover all of Russia, so something spiritual was probably done. Its certainly not consecrated in the sense that all of Russia is one large monastery now (though that would have been impressive to see).
            Regardless, it's still an extremely offensive idea to Russian Orthodoxy (as would be any pronouncement of consecration of a nation with a Christian heritage by a rival group).
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Regardless, it's still an extremely offensive idea to Russian Orthodoxy (as would be any pronouncement of consecration of a nation with a Christian heritage by a rival group).
              Doesn't it just mean to bless and consider holy and to pray for the conversion of atheists and those who have fallen away from the faith? I suppose some might have assumed this should entail conversion to Roman Catholicism, but I never heard of it in this specific sense. Popes have likewise consecrated the whole world. I could be wrong about this. I've only read one chapter of a book about Fatima over 30 years ago. If a patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church were to pray for the consecration of the United States, I would not be offended. We all need prayers. Again, I could be wrong about all this Fatima stuff. It was hardly ever mentioned when I was growing up.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #82
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Regardless, it's still an extremely offensive idea to Russian Orthodoxy (as would be any pronouncement of consecration of a nation with a Christian heritage by a rival group).
                Lets not get into an argument about who's the schismatic one. Mary appeared, she asked this, it was done as she asked for eventually (if somewhat delayed). Communism is no longer a threat.

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