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orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

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Justified By Faith Alone

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  • Leonhard
    replied
    I have to convert every now and then. I've been too preoccupied with my career lately, I really need to rededicate myself more to Christ. And if I was perfect I imagine I'd convert every single morning.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Years ago, I heard Paul Little say something interesting. Instead of asking (or discussing) "are you saved or lost", he would ask something like "have you come to a saving faith in Christ, or are you still on the way?".

    I like that, because it doesn't slam a door shut in the face of a lost person - and I've heard MANY people respond, "yeah, I guess that's me... I'm still on the way..."
    Everyone on this mortal coil is still on the way. Some of us can point to a time where we began our journey to salvation; the rest haven't yet gotten to that point.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.
    Or as CS Lewis said, it is not what the man is with Christ, but what he would have been without Christ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.
    Years ago, I heard Paul Little say something interesting. Instead of asking (or discussing) "are you saved or lost", he would ask something like "have you come to a saving faith in Christ, or are you still on the way?".

    I like that, because it doesn't slam a door shut in the face of a lost person - and I've heard MANY people respond, "yeah, I guess that's me... I'm still on the way..."

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.
    I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.
    And, again, this is where Grace comes in? Why would I want to "judge another man's faith by his works?" The only legitimate reason for me is in determining if would benefit from a presentation of the Gospel in regards to Salvation, or for encouragement in his Christian walk.

    In either case, it's not simply a matter of standing back and observing, but stepping forward and interacting.

    But, yes - what you said.

    Leave a comment:


  • QuantaFille
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    Salvation means protection from something. Temporal salvation means protection from something other than eternal death in hell. Here is an example of temporal salvation:

    James 5:14-15

    14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
    What if someone doesn't receive temporal salvation, even with good works? What would that indicate?

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian
    replied
    Salvation means protection from something. Temporal salvation means protection from something other than eternal death in hell. Here is an example of temporal salvation:

    James 5:14-15

    14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    Leave a comment:


  • QuantaFille
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    Once you admit that there is temporal salvation as well as eternal salvation, and that temporal salvation usually requires works, it's pretty easy to see what every single passage means.
    What do you mean by "temporal salvation", and what verses clearly make the distinction?

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd
    ISTM the best approach is to start with the idea that most likely, no passage really means what it seems to mean.
    Once you admit that there is temporal salvation as well as eternal salvation, and that temporal salvation usually requires works, it's pretty easy to see what every single passage means.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Put it this way, if there aren't any works, there is good reason to think there is no salvation (with obvious exceptions like the thief on the cross).

    But the works aren't what save you.
    Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    ...or we could take the sum of the whole, and work out a position which satisfies everything. I like that approach better.
    ISTM the best approach is to start with the idea that most likely, no passage really means what it seems to mean.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    So are works necessary for salvation?
    Put it this way, if there aren't any works, there is good reason to think there is no salvation (with obvious exceptions like the thief on the cross).

    But the works aren't what save you.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 10-17-2019, 04:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    So perhaps we should add up all the "we must do works to obtain salvation" passages, and all the "faith alone is sufficient to obtain salvation" passages, pick the winner, and white out the losers.
    ...or we could take the sum of the whole, and work out a position which satisfies everything. I like that approach better.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    So are works necessary for salvation?
    See KG's post above.

    Leave a comment:

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