Justified By Faith Alone

[Leonhard]

I have to convert every now and then. I've been too preoccupied with my career lately, I really need to rededicate myself more to Christ. And if I was perfect I imagine I'd convert every single morning.

[One Bad Pig]

Years ago, I heard Paul Little say something interesting. Instead of asking (or discussing) "are you saved or lost", he would ask something like "have you come to a saving faith in Christ, or are you still on the way?".

I like that, because it doesn't slam a door shut in the face of a lost person - and I've heard MANY people respond, "yeah, I guess that's me... I'm still on the way..."

Everyone on this mortal coil is still on the way. Some of us can point to a time where we began our journey to salvation; the rest haven't yet gotten to that point.

[seer]

I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.

Or as CS Lewis said, it is not what the man is with Christ, but what he would have been without Christ...

[Cow Poke]

I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.

Years ago, I heard Paul Little say something interesting. Instead of asking (or discussing) "are you saved or lost", he would ask something like "have you come to a saving faith in Christ, or are you still on the way?".

I like that, because it doesn't slam a door shut in the face of a lost person - and I've heard MANY people respond, "yeah, I guess that's me... I'm still on the way..."

[KingsGambit]

Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.

I heard a sermon not that long ago where the pastor argued that God works with people incrementally and doesn't seek to change everything at once. That there is room to grow. I think that fits with that.

[Cow Poke]

Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.

And, again, this is where Grace comes in? Why would I want to "judge another man's faith by his works?" The only legitimate reason for me is in determining if would benefit from a presentation of the Gospel in regards to Salvation, or for encouragement in his Christian walk.

In either case, it's not simply a matter of standing back and observing, but stepping forward and interacting.

But, yes - what you said.

[QuantaFille]

Salvation means protection from something. Temporal salvation means protection from something other than eternal death in hell. Here is an example of temporal salvation:

James 5:14-15

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

What if someone doesn't receive temporal salvation, even with good works? What would that indicate?

[Obsidian]

Salvation means protection from something. Temporal salvation means protection from something other than eternal death in hell. Here is an example of temporal salvation:

James 5:14-15

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

[QuantaFille]

Once you admit that there is temporal salvation as well as eternal salvation, and that temporal salvation usually requires works, it's pretty easy to see what every single passage means.

What do you mean by "temporal salvation", and what verses clearly make the distinction?

[Obsidian]

ISTM the best approach is to start with the idea that most likely, no passage really means what it seems to mean.

Once you admit that there is temporal salvation as well as eternal salvation, and that temporal salvation usually requires works, it's pretty easy to see what every single passage means.

[seer]

Put it this way, if there aren't any works, there is good reason to think there is no salvation (with obvious exceptions like the thief on the cross).

But the works aren't what save you.

Good, so works don't save. The problem is trying to judge another man's faith by his works. Every man has a different starting point, different demons to overcome. A different upbringing to bring to the task.

[NorrinRadd]

...or we could take the sum of the whole, and work out a position which satisfies everything. I like that approach better.

ISTM the best approach is to start with the idea that most likely, no passage really means what it seems to mean.

[KingsGambit]

So are works necessary for salvation?

Put it this way, if there aren't any works, there is good reason to think there is no salvation (with obvious exceptions like the thief on the cross).

But the works aren't what save you.

[One Bad Pig]

So perhaps we should add up all the "we must do works to obtain salvation" passages, and all the "faith alone is sufficient to obtain salvation" passages, pick the winner, and white out the losers.

...or we could take the sum of the whole, and work out a position which satisfies everything. I like that approach better.

[One Bad Pig]

So are works necessary for salvation?

See KG's post above.