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Definition of Evangelical

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  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Does this mean all directives and promises spoken only to The Twelve (or The Eleven) apply only to them?

    For instance, since no one else was present at the Last Supper, does that mean "I am the Vine, you are the branches" applied only to them?
    Contextualisation and careful exegesis is critical, because undeniably the Eleven were given special promises, duties, and powers. This is a particularly challenging passage to analyse for this purpose.

    "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full."

    Off the cuff and without much deep study: clearly the context of verses 1 and 2 are the other famous 'I am" statements in the Gospel. The others apply to all believers, while verse 2 does not have 'you', strongly indicating that it's a general description of all in Christ. However, Verse 3 clearly applies to the Eleven but not future believers. The rest is more complicated, I'll need more time, but it seems that 'whoever' and 'anyone' in verses 5 and 6 suggest a more general description.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post


    Obviously, he gave a command to the Eleven, not to disciples in general.
    Does this mean all directives and promises spoken only to The Twelve (or The Eleven) apply only to them?

    For instance, since no one else was present at the Last Supper, does that mean "I am the Vine, you are the branches" applied only to them?

    Leave a comment:


  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    That isn't a flipflop.
    Do I have to spell everything out? At best Green showed that many lay believers evanglised, he did not do exegesis of the Matthew passage to show that it applied to them. That's a big difference.

    Source: Matthew by D. A. Carson, Zondervan Academic, 2017

    Disciples are those who hear, understand, and obey Jesus’ teaching (12:46–50). The injunction is given at least to the Eleven, but to the Eleven in their own role as disciples (28:16).

    © Copyright Original Source

    No it isn't. What crap is this, just because the narrator calls the Eleven apostles 'the eleven disciples here' Carson claims the injunction is given to all disciples?


    Though directed towards the Eleven it seems highly unlikely that the Eleven alone are tasked with this mission, as discipling all nations (literally all "peoples" per Craig Blomberg's Matthew: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture) would require quite a bit of time and manpower, and it obviously continues to this day. Scholars like Carson and Leon Morris suggest that other disciples besides the Eleven (perhaps even the "500") were present when the command was given. Philip, who of course was not among the Eleven, certainly fulfilled the Great Commission
    "Suggest" (emphasis mine). Ha. It is not something that naturally arises from the text. All you have is an eisegetic reading from Evangellical assumptions. Evangelicals are used to automatically reading the idea that the Great Commission applies to lay believers into the text.

    Obviously the Eleven could commission others to do the same work, and Jesus could personally do it to for Paul. That has nothing to do with the reading of the passage.



    I note that you ignored the questions from my previous post.
    They are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    You're flipflopping. Earlier you made a different claim, namely "he demonstrates that the Great Commission did, in fact, apply to all believers." He demonstrates no such obligation upon lay believers.
    That isn't a flipflop.


    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Obviously, he gave a command to the Eleven, not to disciples in general.
    Again,

    Source: Matthew by D. A. Carson, Zondervan Academic, 2017

    Disciples are those who hear, understand, and obey Jesus’ teaching (12:46–50). The injunction is given at least to the Eleven, but to the Eleven in their own role as disciples (28:16). Therefore, they are paradigms for all disciples. Plausibly, the command is given to a larger gathering of disciples (see comments at vv. 10, 16–17). Either way, it is binding on all Jesus’ disciples to make others what they themselves are—disciples of Jesus Christ.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Though directed towards the Eleven it seems highly unlikely that the Eleven alone are tasked with this mission, as discipling all nations (literally all "peoples" per Craig Blomberg's Matthew: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture) would require quite a bit of time and manpower, and it obviously continues to this day. Scholars like Carson and Leon Morris suggest that other disciples besides the Eleven (perhaps even the "500") were present when the command was given. Philip, who of course was not among the Eleven, certainly fulfilled the Great Commission when he shared the Gospel and baptized the Ethiopian eunuch. The church wouldn't have gotten very far without the work of Paul and his accomplices, and of course there are the dozens of other men and women of God who fulfill the Commission in the New Testament.

    Source: Matthew: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture by Craig L. Blomberg, B&H Publishing Group, 1992

    To make disciples of all nations does require many people to leave their homelands, but Jesus’ main focus remains on the task of all believers to duplicate themselves wherever they may be. The verb ‘make disciples’ also commands a kind of evangelism that does not stop after someone makes a profession of faith.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: Matthew 14-28, Volume 33B by Donald A. Hagner, Zondervan Academic, 2018

    Here Jesus commissions his disciples and in effect the church of every period of history. They are to go everywhere with the message of good news in the name and authority of Jesus. Theirs is indeed an awesome responsibility: to go, make disciples of all nations, baptize, and teach. The risen, enthroned Jesus promises to be with them in their fulfillment of it, not intermittently but always. Evidence of the truth of that promise is readily available in the narrative of the book of Acts as well as in the history of the church (cf. 16:18), which has seen a network of believers around the world in every land, of every race, come into existence from what began just after the death of Jesus with but a handful of doubting, confused, and powerless disciples. The statements that frame the commission on either side concerning the authority and the presence of Jesus alone allow the church to continue in the world. Only the ongoing reality of these facts can continue to equip the church for its mission--a mission that will continue until the consummation of the age. The great commission and its frame with which Matthew ends remain, like the whole Gospel itself, one of the priceless treasures of the Christian church, providing comfort, strength, and hope until the final dawning of the eschaton. "And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come"(24:14).

    © Copyright Original Source



    I note that you ignored the questions from my previous post.
    Last edited by Adrift; 10-03-2019, 10:04 AM.

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  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I wasn't intending to offer an exegetical argument. I was highlighting that according to Green, the assertion that evangelism wasn't broadly practiced among lay believers before recent times is not accurate.
    You're flipflopping. Earlier you made a different claim, namely "he demonstrates that the Great Commission did, in fact, apply to all believers." He demonstrates no such obligation upon lay believers.

    I'm not sure what sort of exegetical argument you want from Matthew 28:16-20. As a review,

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:16-20

    Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Christ commands his disciples to make disciples of all nations.
    Obviously, he gave a command to the Eleven, not to disciples in general.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Why necessarily after, out of curiosity? The bulk of his writing fell between 190 and 220 according to tertullian.org, and his attraction to Montanism is generally dated around 207.
    Oh, duh. Yeah, you're right. Had it backwards in my head for some reason. Disregard.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    You mean after his Montanism I'm assuming, but yeah, I'd imagine so.
    Why necessarily after, out of curiosity? The bulk of his writing fell between 190 and 220 according to tertullian.org, and his attraction to Montanism is generally dated around 207.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This has to be prior to his Montanism, I'd assume, given the prominent role of a woman in that movement, right?
    You mean after his Montanism I'm assuming, but yeah, I'd imagine so.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I'm not sure how you think that helps your point. If I'm reading Tertullian correctly he's saying, yeah, any Christian can baptize another, but just to keep things in order, and just so's you don't get a big head, it's better to pass on the responsibility to church administration. Other than that, and the fact that he's not too fond of females taking a role in the church, he doesn't say anything specifically about evangelism that I can see.
    This has to be prior to his Montanism, I'd assume, given the prominent role of a woman in that movement, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Interesting. Tertullian:
    I'm not sure how you think that helps your point. If I'm reading Tertullian correctly he's saying, yeah, any Christian can baptize another, but just to keep things in order, and just so's you don't get a big head, it's better to pass on the responsibility to church administration. Other than that, and the fact that he's not too fond of females taking a role in the church, he doesn't say anything specifically about evangelism that I can see.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    That is not an exegetical argument. And since the Great Commission includes baptism, it obviously was not regarded to apply to all believers.
    I wasn't intending to offer an exegetical argument. I was highlighting that according to Green, the assertion that evangelism wasn't broadly practiced among lay believers before recent times is not accurate. I'm not sure what sort of exegetical argument you want from Matthew 28:16-20. As a review,

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 28:16-20

    Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Christ commands his disciples to make disciples of all nations. I don't know about you, but I'm a disciple of Christ, so it is my duty to also make disciples so that all nations are reached. While lay Christians don't usually take it upon themselves to personally physically water baptize others after witnessing to them, they often lead them to a church where they will be baptized, and so in that sense, they are certainly responsible for their baptism. However, as previously pointed out, there's nothing in scripture that I know that forbids lay Christians from personally physically water baptizing people. If water baptism is an outward sign of an inner working, then it seems like there's no better place to express one's commitment to the Lord than within a community of fellow believers in a church, which will usually be presided by church staff as a matter of order (though I have personally witnessed non-staff members acting in helping roles).

    I'm sure pastors and priests do their fair share of evangelizing, but I doubt that every person they baptize was someone they personally reached out to and led to Christ. So one wonders if the pastor/priest is then running against these rather legalistic rules that have been established which cordon off those who can and cannot evangelize within the body of Christ. As DA Carson points out in his commentary on Matthew,
    "Disciples are those who hear, understand, and obey Jesus’ teaching (12:46–50). The injunction is given at least to the Eleven, but to the Eleven in their own role as disciples (28:16). Therefore, they are paradigms for all disciples. Plausibly, the command is given to a larger gathering of disciples (see comments at vv. 10, 16–17). Either way, it is binding on all Jesus’ disciples to make others what they themselves are—disciples of Jesus Christ."

    And then, of course, there's the subject of baptizing in the Spirit, which a number of lay Christians will also affirm they've led people into.

    Honestly, I'm not certain what the issue is. What's your background on this subject? Does only your pastor/priest evangelize, and everyone else in your congregation just chills out, or do you have specially prepared Evangelizers within your church who do the heavy lifting?
    Last edited by Adrift; 10-02-2019, 04:48 PM.

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  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Interesting. Tertullian:

    For concluding our brief subject, it remains to put you in mind also of the due observance of giving and receiving baptism. Of giving it, the chief priest (who is the bishop) has the right: in the next place, the presbyters and deacons, yet not without the bishop's authority, on account of the honour of the Church, which being preserved, peace is preserved. Beside these, even laymen have the right; for what is equally received can be equally given. Unless bishops, or priests, or deacons, be on the spot, other disciples are called i.e. to the work. The word of the Lord ought not to be hidden by any: in like manner, too, baptism, which is equally God's property, can be administered by all. But how much more is the rule of reverence and modesty incumbent on laymen— seeing that these powers belong to their superiors — lest they assume to themselves the specific function of the bishop! Emulation of the episcopal office is the mother of schisms. The most holy apostle has said, that all things are lawful, but not all expedient. Let it suffice assuredly, in cases of necessity, to avail yourself (of that rule , if at any time circumstance either of place, or of time, or of person compels you (so to do); for then the steadfast courage of the succourer, when the situation of the endangered one is urgent, is exceptionally admissible; inasmuch as he will be guilty of a human creature's loss if he shall refrain from bestowing what he had free liberty to bestow. But the woman of pertness, who has usurped the power to teach, will of course not give birth for herself likewise to a right of baptizing, unless some new beast shall arise like the former; so that, just as the one abolished baptism, so some other should in her own right confer it! But if the writings which wrongly go under Paul's name, claim Thecla's example as a licence for women's teaching and baptizing, let them know that, in Asia, the presbyter who composed that writing, as if he were augmenting Paul's fame from his own store, after being convicted, and confessing that he had done it from love of Paul, was removed from his office. For how credible would it seem, that he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! Let them be silent, he says, and at home consult their own husbands.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0321.htm

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  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You need to include a bit more detail before declaring that to be "obvious". There are no examples in the NT of Joe Schmoe believer baptizing anyone, but that is something of an argument from silence.
    I was under the impression that since no one cares to engage with the exegesis, what's left is sweeping historical conclusions without detail.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    That is not an exegetical argument. And since the Great Commission includes baptism, it obviously was not regarded to apply to all believers.
    You need to include a bit more detail before declaring that to be "obvious". There are no examples in the NT of Joe Schmoe believer baptizing anyone, but that is something of an argument from silence.

    Leave a comment:


  • demi-conservative
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    You should check out Michael Green's Evangelism in the Early Church. In surveying the early church up until the third century, he demonstrates that the Great Commission did, in fact, apply to all believers. As he writes in the epilogue,
    That is not an exegetical argument. And since the Great Commission includes baptism, it obviously was not regarded to apply to all believers.

    Leave a comment:

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