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Definition of Evangelical

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  • #46
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The issue (Roman) Catholics and Orthodox have with the Protestant interpretation is the idea of the "invisible church" composed of outwardly diverse bodies yet somehow united in the Spirit. The concept was born out of the inability of Luther and Calvin (more or less) to come to agreement on a number of issues. To Orthodox and Catholic Christians, this waters down the idea of church unity to meaninglessness.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • #47
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Wayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.

      Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.
      I don't think that the phrasing of the 'hell' passage was an issue in dispute. So the meaning of this phrase may have unresolved ambiguity -- sort of like a Supreme Court decision when covering a topic that wasn't part of the dispute.

      Subsequent creeds and confessions, of course, were designed to clarify points of earlier statements of faith that had too much wiggle room.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Ok. It's not especially easy to categorize Evangelicals, because other than a focus on spreading the gospel, they're defined more by what they are not, and have no organizational unity.
        That kinda reminds me of the old 'definition' of Christian as "I don't smoke and I don't chew, and I don't run with those who do".

        It seems "Christian" was defined more by what they DON'T do than by what they do. "Oh, I don't smoke - I'm a Christian!"
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #49
          I am reminded of some of the 'weaknesses' of the creeds and confessions. But I hadn't thought of some changes of interpretation that were needed as the visible church had more doctrinal divisions. The Apostle's Creed was defined when there were fewer distinctions of groups. The Apostle's Creed then appears to be inaccurately used in confessions done today. If people still use the confessions, it may help to identify how the meaning of the confession has been adjusted due to changes within Christianity.


          I still have a concern. Seminaries can be aided by requiring confessions. At minimal, the professors who confess these on entry can possibly be removed from their positions if they show themselves disagreeing with the creeds. But there is a problem if the creeds have limitations, as we have just seen in this discussion.

          There also is a problem if some points of the creeds and confessions need revision in light of closer inspection of scripture. It seems difficult to handle a reasonable change in the confessions based on such closer inspection.

          Maybe these issues have played into the decisions of some groups to avoid the creeds and confessions.
          Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-30-2019, 06:13 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            Your observation is relevant. Church groups don't have to call themselves 'evangelical', but the use of the term would tell prospective members of the distinction from liberal churches.
            Um... Well... I think the ELCA -- EVANGELICAL Lutheran Church in America -- is one of the more liberal synods.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Nationalist.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Evangelicals tend to disdain creeds as empty formulas, and prefer to rely on scripture alone. Creeds are a "tradition of men" and thus avoided, even if the content of a particular creed is not objectionable.
              Yep. The only traditions we like are the ones we ourselves invent.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Nationalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                On a personal level, that makes little sense to me because one could say the same thing about the hymns they sing.
                Only briefly in the '80s did I belong to a church that sang "hymns" in the common sense of the term. The vast majority of my Christian experience has featured "contemporary" worship. Of course that too is a "tradition," but more of a "non-traditional tradition."
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Nationalist.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I think "disdain" might be too strong a word. While I find them unnecessary, I certainly don't "disdain" them.
                  I would say "disdain" or "be suspicious of" would describe the attitudes of the Evangelical and Full Gospel churches I've attended.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    the marketing stuff is reserved for the WOF preachers
                    Hah! You should have seen the book table at my ex-girlfriend's C&MA church.

                    (Of course, one could make a case that CMA founder A.B. Simpson was more of a hardcore "faith" guy than most WOFites, and that WOF-daddy Hagin got one of his "best" teachings from a CMA guy... but that's another topic.)
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      The problem Orthodox Christians have with the Apostle's Creed is that it is insufficiently narrow; an Arian, for example, would have no qualms about reciting it.
                      Is the Apostle's Creed okay for truths that it states even if it falls short of having such refinements?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Um... Well... I think the ELCA -- EVANGELICAL Lutheran Church in America -- is one of the more liberal synods.
                        I haven't checked if the individual ELCA locations use 'evangelical' in their names. I'm not sure how many non-ELCA Lutherans are seeking churches with 'Evangelical' in the name anyhow.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                          I would say "disdain" or "be suspicious of" would describe the attitudes of the Evangelical and Full Gospel churches I've attended.
                          Is this due to a general distrust of tradition? I would suspect the issue being this general distrust. The effect then would be to throw out the good with the bad.

                          The other possibility is like CP said ... about going directly to scripture. Maybe the creeds make the church message seem less dynamic, even if still accurate?

                          Are you generally okay with the (modernized) meaning of the Apostle's Creed? Is this creed close enough for use as a summary of truths about Jesus?

                          Note: I do remember a new believer switching over to Reformed Presbyterian. At that time it seemed that he was getting focused on intellectual pursuit rather than New Testament Christianity. Now I would say we need both. (This is a quick way of describing things -- and probably not the best way.)
                          Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-30-2019, 08:02 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            Um... Well... I think the ELCA -- EVANGELICAL Lutheran Church in America -- is one of the more liberal synods.
                            The ELCA is neither EVANGELICAL, nor LUTHERAN
                            ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              Wayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.

                              Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.
                              Well, I'm not willing to say he's damned either, not that I know much about him, but I don't think it's a case of the Apostles' Creed misinterpreting Scripture, but of Grudem misinterpreting the Apostles' Creed. The word hell in the Apostles' Creed refers not to the final place of judgement for the wicked, but to the resting place of the dead awaiting the final judgement. I.e it refers to hades/sheol, and not to "the lake of fire".

                              In Swedish we don't use the word "hell" (or "helvetet" as we would say) when reciting the creed, instead we use the word "dödsriket" (translates approximately to "land of the dead") and is used to translate both the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades.
                              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                Well, I'm not willing to say he's damned either, not that I know much about him, but I don't think it's a case of the Apostles' Creed misinterpreting Scripture, but of Grudem misinterpreting the Apostles' Creed. The word hell in the Apostles' Creed refers not to the final place of judgement for the wicked, but to the resting place of the dead awaiting the final judgement. I.e it refers to hades/sheol, and not to "the lake of fire".

                                In Swedish we don't use the word "hell" (or "helvetet" as we would say) when reciting the creed, instead we use the word "dödsriket" (translates approximately to "land of the dead") and is used to translate both the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades.
                                I was trying to say that. Thanks for translating my point into English.

                                Comment

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