Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Definition of Evangelical
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.
Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.
Subsequent creeds and confessions, of course, were designed to clarify points of earlier statements of faith that had too much wiggle room.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOk. It's not especially easy to categorize Evangelicals, because other than a focus on spreading the gospel, they're defined more by what they are not, and have no organizational unity.
It seems "Christian" was defined more by what they DON'T do than by what they do. "Oh, I don't smoke - I'm a Christian!"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I am reminded of some of the 'weaknesses' of the creeds and confessions. But I hadn't thought of some changes of interpretation that were needed as the visible church had more doctrinal divisions. The Apostle's Creed was defined when there were fewer distinctions of groups. The Apostle's Creed then appears to be inaccurately used in confessions done today. If people still use the confessions, it may help to identify how the meaning of the confession has been adjusted due to changes within Christianity.
I still have a concern. Seminaries can be aided by requiring confessions. At minimal, the professors who confess these on entry can possibly be removed from their positions if they show themselves disagreeing with the creeds. But there is a problem if the creeds have limitations, as we have just seen in this discussion.
There also is a problem if some points of the creeds and confessions need revision in light of closer inspection of scripture. It seems difficult to handle a reasonable change in the confessions based on such closer inspection.
Maybe these issues have played into the decisions of some groups to avoid the creeds and confessions.Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-30-2019, 05:13 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostYour observation is relevant. Church groups don't have to call themselves 'evangelical', but the use of the term would tell prospective members of the distinction from liberal churches.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostEvangelicals tend to disdain creeds as empty formulas, and prefer to rely on scripture alone. Creeds are a "tradition of men" and thus avoided, even if the content of a particular creed is not objectionable.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOn a personal level, that makes little sense to me because one could say the same thing about the hymns they sing.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think "disdain" might be too strong a word. While I find them unnecessary, I certainly don't "disdain" them.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by mikewhitney View Postthe marketing stuff is reserved for the WOF preachers
(Of course, one could make a case that CMA founder A.B. Simpson was more of a hardcore "faith" guy than most WOFites, and that WOF-daddy Hagin got one of his "best" teachings from a CMA guy... but that's another topic.)Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe problem Orthodox Christians have with the Apostle's Creed is that it is insufficiently narrow; an Arian, for example, would have no qualms about reciting it.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostUm... Well... I think the ELCA -- EVANGELICAL Lutheran Church in America -- is one of the more liberal synods.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI would say "disdain" or "be suspicious of" would describe the attitudes of the Evangelical and Full Gospel churches I've attended.
The other possibility is like CP said ... about going directly to scripture. Maybe the creeds make the church message seem less dynamic, even if still accurate?
Are you generally okay with the (modernized) meaning of the Apostle's Creed? Is this creed close enough for use as a summary of truths about Jesus?
Note: I do remember a new believer switching over to Reformed Presbyterian. At that time it seemed that he was getting focused on intellectual pursuit rather than New Testament Christianity. Now I would say we need both. (This is a quick way of describing things -- and probably not the best way.)Last edited by mikewhitney; 09-30-2019, 07:02 PM.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.
Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.
In Swedish we don't use the word "hell" (or "helvetet" as we would say) when reciting the creed, instead we use the word "dödsriket" (translates approximately to "land of the dead") and is used to translate both the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostWell, I'm not willing to say he's damned either, not that I know much about him, but I don't think it's a case of the Apostles' Creed misinterpreting Scripture, but of Grudem misinterpreting the Apostles' Creed. The word hell in the Apostles' Creed refers not to the final place of judgement for the wicked, but to the resting place of the dead awaiting the final judgement. I.e it refers to hades/sheol, and not to "the lake of fire".
In Swedish we don't use the word "hell" (or "helvetet" as we would say) when reciting the creed, instead we use the word "dödsriket" (translates approximately to "land of the dead") and is used to translate both the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades.
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