Universalism

[NorrinRadd]

Does he portend to give any scriptural evidence?

I'm not sure that means what you think it means.

[lee_merrill]

If the punishment is eternal then they are not getting out.

But if Sodom is an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...

And regarding Sodom, God says he will restore the city/nation, not the sinful people whom he destroyed and he is speaking poetically about restoring nations after the end times.

But this is not poetry, this is prophecy. And how can a city be restored, without restoring inhabitants?

"Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them..." (Eze 16:52–53)

"Your sins", "theirs", "they appear more righteous", this is talking about inhabitants of Jerusalem and Sodom.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Did I not say I see three threads in Scripture?


No, it says they will depart into the eternal fire, into eternal punishment. Then I quoted Ezekiel 16:53 along with Jude 7, where God says people that are examples of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire will be restored.

Blessings,
Lee

If the punishment is eternal then they are not getting out.

And regarding Sodom, God says he will restore the city/nation, not the sinful people whom he destroyed and he is speaking poetically about restoring nations after the end times. You should be careful trying to cherry pick a difficult poetic verse and using it to counteract a clear and concise verse.

[lee_merrill]

No we have been quoting scripture in context, not ignoring anything. YOU have been quoting scripture out of context and ignoring other scripture that flatly says your ideas on universalism are wrong.

Did I not say I see three threads in Scripture?

I have taken the scriptures you presented and quoted the scriptures around it, showing you to be wrong. You quoted just the part about the fire prepared for the devil and ignored the part right after it that said the unsaved people will be tossed into the same fire for ETERNITY.

No, it says they will depart into the eternal fire, into eternal punishment. Then I quoted Ezekiel 16:53 along with Jude 7, where God says people that are examples of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire will be restored.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I'm quoting Scripture, actually! You all are the ones ignoring the Scriptures that I present, you are not addressing the points that I make. And I agree that there is a case to be made for eternal punishment, as there is a valid Scriptural case to be made for annihilationism, as there is a case for God all in all.

I believe that eternity will be surprising! All these threads being true, as in the cross, which no one expected, and even seemingly contradictory, with perfect love and perfect justice expressed.

Blessings,
Lee

No we have been quoting scripture in context, not ignoring anything. YOU have been quoting scripture out of context and ignoring other scripture that flatly says your ideas on universalism are wrong.

I have taken the scriptures you presented and quoted the scriptures around it, showing you to be wrong. You quoted just the part about the fire prepared for the devil and ignored the part right after it that said the unsaved people will be tossed into the same fire for ETERNITY.

[KingsGambit]

It's odd that this thread has more about homosexuality than the Scriptures that point to universal salvation. I actually have a problem with universalism, because I think it's hard to make that consistent with Jesus' teaching. On the other hand, we might want to consider ways to do so, because I think Paul is universalist or close.

One of the most explicit descriptions of judgement is 1 Cor 15:23-28. It's hard to avoid understanding the "all" here universally, since Jesus' salvation is paralleled to sin's entrance through Adam. Christians rise first. Then the "powers", including death are defeated. Then everyone joins Christ. That subjection here is a positive thing is clear by verse 28, where the Son is subject to the Father. There are plenty of attempts to understand this another way, but they're pretty clearly attempts at evasion, not actual exegesis.

Part of the issue with this passage is that it make an assumption that is antithetical to American concepts of individualism and free will. It assumes that evil and death are powers that enslave us. Hence once they are destroyed, all are joined to Christ.

The one hope I see here to avoid universalism is to assume that some people are so identified with the "powers" that they are destroyed with it. I actually think that is a possibility. But the tone of this passage doesn't suggest that this is most people, as many Christians seem to assume.

Although less explicit, there are other universalistic passages in Paul, e.g. Philip 2:9-11 or Rom 5:18. Again, the parallelism with Adam makes it clear that in Rom 5 all are included, absent fancy exegetical footwork.

1 Cor 15 does indicate a difference between the treatment of those who are in Christ and those who aren't.

I don't see how 1 Cor 15:23-28's "all in all" vision necessarily suggests universalism. It fits quite nicely with annihilationism; Glenn Peoples uses that passage to argue that there will be no room for any sin in creation in finality. I see that you mentioned the possibility as unlikely but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

1 Timothy 6:16's mention that only God has immortality seems to suggest that Paul was not a universalist as well.

[Thoughtful Monk]

You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something. That is a dangerous theology Lee. It is how many a person has gotten off of the righteous path. I made a determination long ago when I was a young Christian who found many things in the bible that I didn't like, that when my wishes and feelings contradicted what the bible said, I would go with the bible instead of my self-centered wishes.

You need to stop "hoping" and believe what the bible is telling you. Not digging through the bible finding bits and pieces that reinforce your preconceptions. That is called EISOGESIS, reading INTO the text instead of EXOGESES, taking meaning from the text.

I think when someone really understands the meaning and permance of eternal separation from God, they don't want anyone to experience it. One image of hell I read years ago still scares me. Yes, part of the reason I am a Christian is fire insurance.

I would love to be a univeralist. However when I read the Scriptures, I can't hold that position. It really bothers me that people will spend eternity separated from God. I have to accept the reality that it's God's way and not my way.

[hedrick]

It's odd that this thread has more about homosexuality than the Scriptures that point to universal salvation. I actually have a problem with universalism, because I think it's hard to make that consistent with Jesus' teaching. On the other hand, we might want to consider ways to do so, because I think Paul is universalist or close.

One of the most explicit descriptions of judgement is 1 Cor 15:23-28. It's hard to avoid understanding the "all" here universally, since Jesus' salvation is paralleled to sin's entrance through Adam. Christians rise first. Then the "powers", including death are defeated. Then everyone joins Christ. That subjection here is a positive thing is clear by verse 28, where the Son is subject to the Father. There are plenty of attempts to understand this another way, but they're pretty clearly attempts at evasion, not actual exegesis.

Part of the issue with this passage is that it make an assumption that is antithetical to American concepts of individualism and free will. It assumes that evil and death are powers that enslave us. Hence once they are destroyed, all are joined to Christ.

The one hope I see here to avoid universalism is to assume that some people are so identified with the "powers" that they are destroyed with it. I actually think that is a possibility. But the tone of this passage doesn't suggest that this is most people, as many Christians seem to assume.

Although less explicit, there are other universalistic passages in Paul, e.g. Philip 2:9-11 or Rom 5:18. Again, the parallelism with Adam makes it clear that in Rom 5 all are included, absent fancy exegetical footwork.

1 Cor 15 does indicate a difference between the treatment of those who are in Christ and those who aren't.

[Cow Poke]

I'm quoting Scripture, actually!

Bob decided he really needed an answer to an important question that was weighing on his mind, so he sat down in a chair with a closed Bible in his lap, and decided to close his eyes, allow the Bible to fall open, put his finger down on a page, and there would be his answer.

His first attempt was "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself". (Matt 27:5 NIV)

OK, that couldn't be it, let's try again...

His second attempt was ""Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:37)

OK, third time's a charm.... ""What you are about to do, do quickly." (John 13:27)


Don't hang yourself, brother.

[lee_merrill]

You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something.

I'm quoting Scripture, actually! You all are the ones ignoring the Scriptures that I present, you are not addressing the points that I make. And I agree that there is a case to be made for eternal punishment, as there is a valid Scriptural case to be made for annihilationism, as there is a case for God all in all.

I believe that eternity will be surprising! All these threads being true, as in the cross, which no one expected, and even seemingly contradictory, with perfect love and perfect justice expressed.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

Blessings,
Lee

You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something. That is a dangerous theology Lee. It is how many a person has gotten off of the righteous path. I made a determination long ago when I was a young Christian who found many things in the bible that I didn't like, that when my wishes and feelings contradicted what the bible said, I would go with the bible instead of my self-centered wishes.

You need to stop "hoping" and believe what the bible is telling you. Not digging through the bible finding bits and pieces that reinforce your preconceptions. That is called EISOGESIS, reading INTO the text instead of EXOGESES, taking meaning from the text.

[lee_merrill]

If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

Blessings,
Lee

[mossrose]

If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

--
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And the word "eternal" is used to describe the fire, how long the people tossed there will be punished and how long the righteous will live. So if it is temporary, then so is heaven.

So yeah, you should take them all together and combine what they say, but you aren't doing that. You are cherry picking what you want to see, and handwaving away inconvenient verses.

I gave the same explanation of that passage earlier in this thread, but Lee either didn't see it or he ignored it. I even said that the same word for "eternal" in the original text was used in both cases.

[Sparko]

Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

Blessings,
Lee

If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

--
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And the word "eternal" is used to describe the fire, how long the people tossed there will be punished and how long the righteous will live. So if it is temporary, then so is heaven.

So yeah, you should take them all together and combine what they say, but you aren't doing that. You are cherry picking what you want to see, and handwaving away inconvenient verses.

[lee_merrill]

That is not what the Scriptures I cited say.

Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

Blessings,
Lee