Universalism

[Quantum Weirdness]

Universalists are very good at philosophy, mainly because they are very bad at scripture interpretation. There are some verses and concepts you can take out of context to make an argument for universalism, but Jesus made perfectly clear that some will not be saved. Also note Hebrews 3:11: "They will never enter my rest."

I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping everybody will be saved, because 2 Peter 3:9 says the same thing. But when you outright say that it will happen, it becomes a problem.

They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).

[Cow Poke]

Universalism is a lazy man's excuse to ignore the Great Commission.

[Christian3]

Wesley was not a universalist.

Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???

[mossrose]

Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???

Just because the Methodists didn't start out that way doesn't mean they haven't strayed from their roots.

My Dad was saved while attending the United Church of Canada, once a Bible believing evangelical organization. It now is a travesty of what it used to be because it accepts every popular idea the culture throws at us and has even changed their hymnal to include hymns to "mother" God.

Any church, without standing on the firm foundation of God's word, will stray into heresy and tolerance of sin.

[Cow Poke]

Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???

Many mainline churches have gone to "mass appeal" - watering down their beliefs to lure in the masses. Interestingly enough, those denominations are the ones that continue to die out, and those that stand firm on the Word of God are growing or holding their own.

[KingsGambit]

They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).

This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.

[Quantum Weirdness]

This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.

True*. But is it against Scripture?

EDIT:
*- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.

[KingsGambit]

True*. But is it against Scripture?

EDIT:
*- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.

I would argue it is. Consider the contrast of eternal punishment and eternal life in Matthew 25. This doesn't seem to leave room for somebody who stays alive forever, not in a state of punishment, but in a state of limbo (to use an example from folk theology, which contrary to proper belief was never actually adopted as an official view of the Catholic Church). You could argue that this is a form of "eternal life", but this clearly goes against how Scripture otherwise uses the phrase "eternal life".

As far as arguing from the nature of God - this is one of the most common arguments for universalism, and there's a major problem. People who conclude that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture could not permit eternal conscious torment jump right from there to universalism, but that completely ignores the possibility of annihilationism (which has much more of a biblical case than universalism), as well as some of the "low quality of life" eternal conscious punishment views like those of Glenn Miller, Alexander Pruss, and C.S. Lewis.

[lee_merrill]

Is there any biblical support for Universalism?

I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent? And if so, will his word not accomplish his purpose (Isa. 55:10-11)?

I am a "soft universalist", I see reason to hope that all will repent, yet I'm unwilling to state categorically that all will repent. I believe eternity will be unlike anyone expects, with annihilationism true, and eternal punishment true, and God all in all.

I'm asking because a deacon of my church will be teaching Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" in an upcoming Bible study.

Well, I'm not a fan of Rob Bell, he seems to have strayed from the text.

Blessings,
Lee

[NorrinRadd]

I'm trying to find out what the founder of the Methodist church, John Wesley, said about Universalim. But my research keeps coming up talking about John Wesley Hanson.

I'm having trouble finding anything directly by Wesley. I find pages claiming he was not a universalist, I find pages claiming he became a universalist late in life. I find links to a scholarly book by James Ellison that is entirely devoted to the topic of John Wesley and Universalism. The summaries and teases suggest he was at least inclined in the direction of universalism.

[Bill the Cat]

I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent?

No. Commandments were made to be obeyed or rejected. Man decides whether to do either. It is His purpose for man to choose.

[seer]

I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent? And if so, will his word not accomplish his purpose (Isa. 55:10-11)?

Blessings,
Lee

I agree with the hope thing. God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Perhaps some will have to go through hell to get to heaven.

[seer]

No. Commandments were made to be obeyed or rejected. Man decides whether to do either. It is His purpose for man to choose.

If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?

[mossrose]

Scripture is clear that the way is narrow and few will find it, but the road to destruction is broad, and many will find that one.

[Cow Poke]

If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?

Peter said God was not willing that any should perish - that was His word, and it's not returning void.