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Universalism

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  • #91
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Lee, are you arguing the case for universalism because you believe that is what scripture teaches?
    I believe Scripture gives us reason to hope that all will repent.

    Do you believe that all will be saved regardless of their lack of unbelief while alive, that all will be given a second chance to accept Christ as Saviour?
    I'm not sure how it might work out, I see three threads in Scripture, eternal punishment, annihilation of the wicked, and God all in all.

    Satan and his angels will be sent to the lake of fire forever because they rebelled against God. Unbelievers also rebel against God and Jesus said in John 8 that they are of their father the devil. Same crime, same punishment. And no description of hell in scripture indicates that time spent in hell is a remedial experience or remedial justice.
    Yet the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for people. So if people somehow don't belong there, may we hope they won't stay there?

    God's very nature, as a holy and just God, manifests itself in punishment of sin. If He does not punish sin, then He is not holy nor just.
    Yes, agreed. However, note that the Lord will restore Sodom (Eze. 16:53), which must mean former inhabitants there, which gives me reason to hope for those who are "an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?
      Though I have Calvinist leanings, not Molinist. I don't seem to fit in well in any doctrinal scheme!

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

        Yet the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for people. So if people somehow don't belong there, may we hope they won't stay there?
        What makes you think that the eternal fire was not meant for people?

        Matthew 7:13-14 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        Entering the Kingdom
        13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

        Matthew 8:12 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        12 But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

        Matthew 10:28 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

        Matthew 13:40-42 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        40 Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin[a] and those guilty of lawlessness.[b] 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

        Matthew 18:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        8 If your hand or your foot causes your downfall, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire.

        Mark 3:28-29 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins[a] and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”[b]—

        Mark 9:43-48 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        43 And if your hand causes your downfall, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and go to hell—the unquenchable fire, [44 where
        Their worm does not die,
        and the fire is not quenched.][a][b]
        45 And if your foot causes your downfall, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell— [the unquenchable fire, 46 where
        Their worm does not die,
        and the fire is not quenched.][c][d]
        47 And if your eye causes your downfall, gouge it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
        Their worm does not die,
        and the fire is not quenched.[e]

        2 Thessalonians 1:9 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength

        Jude 7 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
        7 In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions,[a] just as angels did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?
          My favorite Protestant writer (John Stackhouse) believes in purgatory. I happen to think he's wrong on this one though.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            My favorite Protestant writer (John Stackhouse) believes in purgatory. I happen to think he's wrong on this one though.
            Does he portend to give any scriptural evidence?
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Does he portend to give any scriptural evidence?
              Yes. His biggest piece of scriptural evidence was 1 Corinthians 3:15, and he focused on that there is no reason to think that this purification process happens instantly. He was careful to distinguish his view from the Catholic view that it was needed to actually satisfy the payment for sins, because that is totally against the Protestant view of how God justifies us.

              (Again, I don't agree with it but I didn't see it as "unorthodox".)
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Yes. His biggest piece of scriptural evidence was 1 Corinthians 3:15, and he focused on that there is no reason to think that this purification process happens instantly. He was careful to distinguish his view from the Catholic view that it was needed to actually satisfy the payment for sins, because that is totally against the Protestant view of how God justifies us.

                (Again, I don't agree with it but I didn't see it as "unorthodox".)
                Interesting. Thanks
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                  What makes you think that the eternal fire was not meant for people?

                  Matthew 7:13-14 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
                  Entering the Kingdom
                  13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. 14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it...
                  The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so It wasn't prepared at least initially, for people.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so It wasn't prepared at least initially, for people.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee

                    That is not what the Scriptures I cited say.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      That is not what the Scriptures I cited say.
                      Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Well, one verse is not erased by other verses, we have to take them all together, and combine what they say.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

                        --
                        41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

                        44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

                        45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

                        46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

                        And the word "eternal" is used to describe the fire, how long the people tossed there will be punished and how long the righteous will live. So if it is temporary, then so is heaven.

                        So yeah, you should take them all together and combine what they say, but you aren't doing that. You are cherry picking what you want to see, and handwaving away inconvenient verses.

                        Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.

                          --
                          41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

                          44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

                          45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

                          46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

                          And the word "eternal" is used to describe the fire, how long the people tossed there will be punished and how long the righteous will live. So if it is temporary, then so is heaven.

                          So yeah, you should take them all together and combine what they say, but you aren't doing that. You are cherry picking what you want to see, and handwaving away inconvenient verses.

                          I gave the same explanation of that passage earlier in this thread, but Lee either didn't see it or he ignored it. I even said that the same word for "eternal" in the original text was used in both cases.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            If you actually read beyond your cherry-picked verse in Matthew 25 where he says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil, he says those on his left will be cast into that fire and suffer ETERNAL Punishment.
                            I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              I agree, yet there still seems to be a glimmer of hope even here, with hell being prepared for others. Let us also remember that Sodom will be restored, the very example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 7).

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something. That is a dangerous theology Lee. It is how many a person has gotten off of the righteous path. I made a determination long ago when I was a young Christian who found many things in the bible that I didn't like, that when my wishes and feelings contradicted what the bible said, I would go with the bible instead of my self-centered wishes.

                              You need to stop "hoping" and believe what the bible is telling you. Not digging through the bible finding bits and pieces that reinforce your preconceptions. That is called EISOGESIS, reading INTO the text instead of EXOGESES, taking meaning from the text.

                              Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                You are just ignoring scripture for your own feelings about something.
                                I'm quoting Scripture, actually! You all are the ones ignoring the Scriptures that I present, you are not addressing the points that I make. And I agree that there is a case to be made for eternal punishment, as there is a valid Scriptural case to be made for annihilationism, as there is a case for God all in all.

                                I believe that eternity will be surprising! All these threads being true, as in the cross, which no one expected, and even seemingly contradictory, with perfect love and perfect justice expressed.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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