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  • #76
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Lee, you're sounding like Joseph Smith who, when his brother died without being baptized, decided there needed to be baptism by proxy.
    Well, we may consider verses such as we read here:

    MT 11:21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

    Would God see that repentance would have happened, and not arrange in the future for it to really happen?

    MK 4:11-12 "Those who are outside get everything in parables, in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."

    These people would apparently have repented if the parables had been explained to them, and similarly here:

    Ezekiel 3:6 Surely if I had sent you to them, they would have listened to you.

    So again, will God see that they would have repented, and then simply leave them, and not seek to save what was lost?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

      For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


      Well, not if everyone may repent.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Hebrews 9:27-28

      27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

      28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
      This is pretty clear to me that after someone dies, there is NO hope of repentance.

      And as for your comment about those who haven't heard the gospel, all will be judged by the light they have been given. They won't be judged on what they don't know, but on what they do know.

      Romans 2:12-16

      12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

      13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

      14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

      15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

      16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
      Romans 1 and 2 say that no one has an excuse to not believe in the God of scripture and His salvation.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Yep. although there are some independent baptist churches that you can't be sure of what they are teaching unless you check them out. My mom's baptist church is OK, but it is KJV Only and the preacher is the type that starts breathing funny and gets red faced as he "gets the holy spirit" going. I usually couldn't follow him at all when the started his strutting chicken walk with his gospel yelling.
        GLOW-ruh be ta GAWD!!!!
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Nationalist.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

          For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


          Well, not if everyone may repent.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          You've been given the answers to these hopeful maybes. I now ask what is the specific Scriptural basis for believing the lost may become found post mortem. For instance, what proof-text does Packer adduce to support the idea that "they may have a chance..."?
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Hebrews 9:27-28

            This is pretty clear to me that after someone dies, there is NO hope of repentance.
            Well, there is judgment, though it doesn't say directly whether there is hope of repentance.

            Romans 1 and 2 say that no one has an excuse to not believe in the God of scripture and His salvation.
            Good point, I cede the point. But then what about those God says would have repented if things had been different (see above)?

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              You've been given the answers to these hopeful maybes. I now ask what is the specific Scriptural basis for believing the lost may become found post mortem.
              See above, in my post to CowPoke…

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by lee
                But then what about those God says would have repented if things had been different (see above)?
                I trust that God is omniscient and knows everything that has happened and what will happen. I believe that God knows who will believe and who will not.

                Perhaps the message the Lord gave to Chorazin and Bethsaida were indicating degrees of punishment, theirs worse than Tyre and Sidon. Only God in His sovereignty knows who will repent and be forgiven.

                Ezekiel 3:6 in the NASB says:

                But I have sent you to them who should listen to you;
                indicating to me that God knew who would and who would not repent.

                The passage in Mark is indicating that the mystery of the parables, the kingdom of heaven, is revealed to those who believe, while it remains hidden from those who reject Christ and His gospel. The unbelieving do not want to repent. Their rejection of Christ will seal their fate.

                None of the passages you mentioned are indicative of any chance of repentance following death.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Well, there is judgment, though it doesn't say directly whether there is hope of repentance.
                  That's a pretty critical piece of information to leave out.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    I think you are right on this your comment. Why preach the gospel if God will accept you without it?
                    Universalists--at least in my experience--generally believe in some kind of temporary punishment for sins if they're bad enough, with it being lengthier/harsher the worse someone was. So the purpose of preaching would be to spare people that.

                    AND, doesn't universalism do harm to Jesus' sacrifice? If everyone is saved then why did Jesus have to die?
                    I don't follow the logic here. Under universalism, Jesus died to save everyone. In other words, universalism wouldn't have been possible without Jesus's sacrifice. I do not see how that does harm to it or brings up the question of why Jesus had to die when Jesus's death is kind of the reason universalism is true--at least according to my understanding of Christian universalists.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Yep. although there are some independent baptist churches that you can't be sure of what they are teaching unless you check them out. My mom's baptist church is OK, but it is KJV Only and the preacher is the type that starts breathing funny and gets red faced as he "gets the holy spirit" going. I usually couldn't follow him at all when the started his strutting chicken walk with his gospel yelling.
                      In my experience, "OK" and "KJV Only" tend to be contradictory, unless you're using a more moderate idea of "KJV Only" than I'm used to. Are we talking about a mere preference for the KJV, or the idea that all the other English translations are corrupted and that only the KJV is reliable?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        I trust that God is omniscient and knows everything that has happened and what will happen. I believe that God knows who will believe and who will not.

                        Perhaps the message the Lord gave to Chorazin and Bethsaida were indicating degrees of punishment, theirs worse than Tyre and Sidon. Only God in His sovereignty knows who will repent and be forgiven.
                        Yes, and he said Tyre and Sidon would have repented!

                        Ezekiel 3:6 in the NASB says:

                        But I have sent you to them who should listen to you;
                        indicating to me that God knew who would and who would not repent.
                        Alrighty, yes.

                        MK 4:11-12 "Those who are outside get everything in parables, in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."
                        The passage in Mark is indicating that the mystery of the parables, the kingdom of heaven, is revealed to those who believe, while it remains hidden from those who reject Christ and His gospel. The unbelieving do not want to repent. Their rejection of Christ will seal their fate.
                        Actually, Jesus is speaking in parables lest they return and be forgiven! The parables are to keep them from repenting, God is rejecting them. And will he reject them forever?

                        "For the Lord will not reject forever,
                        For if He causes grief,
                        Then He will have compassion
                        According to His abundant lovingkindness." (Lam. 3:31–32)

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Yes, and he said Tyre and Sidon would have repented!


                          Alrighty, yes.


                          Actually, Jesus is speaking in parables lest they return and be forgiven! The parables are to keep them from repenting, God is rejecting them. And will he reject them forever?

                          "For the Lord will not reject forever,
                          For if He causes grief,
                          Then He will have compassion
                          According to His abundant lovingkindness." (Lam. 3:31–32)

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Lee, are you arguing the case for universalism because you believe that is what scripture teaches? Do you believe that all will be saved regardless of their lack of unbelief while alive, that all will be given a second chance to accept Christ as Saviour?


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Hebrews 10

                            26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

                            27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

                            28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

                            29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

                            30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

                            31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
                            Matthew 25

                            31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

                            32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

                            33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

                            34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

                            35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

                            36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

                            37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

                            39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

                            40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

                            41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

                            42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

                            43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

                            44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

                            45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

                            46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
                            The word in the original for "eternal" here is exactly the same word in both instances. If you get rid of an eternal punishment for those who reject Christ, then you also have to get rid of an eternal heaven, and you are calling Jesus a liar.

                            Satan and his angels will be sent to the lake of fire forever because they rebelled against God. Unbelievers also rebel against God and Jesus said in John 8 that they are of their father the devil. Same crime, same punishment. And no description of hell in scripture indicates that time spent in hell is a remedial experience or remedial justice.

                            Jude

                            5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

                            6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

                            7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
                            God's very nature, as a holy and just God, manifests itself in punishment of sin. If He does not punish sin, then He is not holy nor just.

                            Isaiah 66

                            14 Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad,
                            And your bones will flourish like the new grass;
                            And the hand of the Lord will be made known to His servants,
                            But He will be indignant toward His enemies.
                            15
                            For behold, the Lord will come in fire
                            And His chariots like the whirlwind,
                            To render His anger with fury,
                            And His rebuke with flames of fire.
                            16
                            For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
                            And by His sword on all flesh,
                            And those slain by the Lord will be many.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              So there would need to be hope for repentance after death.

                              For example, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" Even J.I. Packer has indicated that they may have a chance to hear and believe, after dying.


                              Well, not if everyone may repent.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              maybe you should become a Catholic since they believe in purgatory?

                              Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                                In my experience, "OK" and "KJV Only" tend to be contradictory, unless you're using a more moderate idea of "KJV Only" than I'm used to. Are we talking about a mere preference for the KJV, or the idea that all the other English translations are corrupted and that only the KJV is reliable?
                                A church can believe that only the King James version is accurate and still be orthodox in their doctrines.

                                Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

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