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Universalism

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?
    It would depend on if God's desire for men to have free will and choose him freely is less than his desire that all will be saved.

    Judging by the fact that we can choose to reject God I think the answer is obvious.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?
      Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        It would depend on if God's desire for men to have free will and choose him freely is less than his desire that all will be saved.

        Judging by the fact that we can choose to reject God I think the answer is obvious.
        But is God behind that rejection?

        "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
        and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17)

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Scripture is clear that the way is narrow and few will find it, but the road to destruction is broad, and many will find that one.
          And I believe there are three clear threads in Scripture, eternal punishment, annihilationism, and God all in all, and I don't see how to put them together, but I believe that all will be true.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But is God behind that rejection?

            "Why, LORD, do you make us wander from your ways
            and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Now you are saying God is working against himself?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              And I believe there are three clear threads in Scripture, eternal punishment, annihilationism, and God all in all, and I don't see how to put them together, but I believe that all will be true.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              What do you mean by annihilation, and can you give the scriptures that speak of it?


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                What do you mean by annihilation, and can you give the scriptures that speak of it?
                Matthew 10:28 is probably the one that points most in that direction.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #53
                  The main philosophical argument I see for universalism is as follows:

                  -God wants everyone to be saved 2 Peter 3:9.
                  -If not everybody is saved, God does not get His way.
                  -If God does not get His way, his omnipotence comes into question.

                  The third point is where the argument fails. There are a number of passages, especially in the Old Testament, where God does not get His way even though He makes clear what result He wants. Nonetheless, God remains firmly in control; He simply allows people to experience the consequences of their actions.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Now you are saying God is working against himself?
                    No, God's purpose sometimes is that people not repent:

                    “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
                    Their ears dull,
                    And their eyes dim,
                    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                    Hear with their ears,
                    Understand with their hearts,
                    And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

                    But God's ultimate purpose is repentance:

                    "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      There are a number of passages, especially in the Old Testament, where God does not get His way even though He makes clear what result He wants. Nonetheless, God remains firmly in control; He simply allows people to experience the consequences of their actions.
                      But what about Isaiah 55:10-11? God's purposes will all be fulfilled.

                      PR 16:4 The Lord works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.
                      PR 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
                      PR 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
                      ISA 14:27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

                      These are only a few of such verses.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        No, God's purpose sometimes is that people not repent:

                        “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
                        Their ears dull,
                        And their eyes dim,
                        Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                        Hear with their ears,
                        Understand with their hearts,
                        And return and be healed.” (Isa. 6:10)

                        But God's ultimate purpose is repentance:

                        "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Rom. 11:32)

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Well then that destroys your argument that God gets what he desires and he desires everyone to be saved.

                        Romans 9:20-22 New International Version (NIV)

                        20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

                        22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          But what about Isaiah 55:10-11? God's purposes will all be fulfilled.

                          PR 16:4 The Lord works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.
                          PR 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
                          PR 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.
                          ISA 14:27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

                          These are only a few of such verses.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          The Lord has purposed for His Son to come to earth to provide Salvation to those who would receive Him. Purpose accomplished.

                          It would be a cruel God, indeed, to have His Son go through all that if everybody gets a free pass.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Well then that destroys your argument that God gets what he desires and he desires everyone to be saved.
                            Well, his desire is to show mercy, which means we must first need mercy.

                            Romans 9:20-22 New International Version (NIV)

                            20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

                            22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
                            Yes, some are vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction. Yet is there hope for them?

                            "Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." (Rom. 10:1)

                            Paul is praying for those whom he said God had rejected!

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              The Lord has purposed for His Son to come to earth to provide Salvation to those who would receive Him. Purpose accomplished.
                              But God also commands everyone everywhere to repent! The stated purpose here would be that everyone repent.

                              It would be a cruel God, indeed, to have His Son go through all that if everybody gets a free pass.
                              No, people have to repent and put their faith in Jesus, his sacrifice is the atonement for sin.

                              "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 Jn 2:2)

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                But God also commands everyone everywhere to repent! The stated purpose here would be that everyone repent.
                                And, yet, people die not having repented.

                                No, people have to repent and put their faith in Jesus, his sacrifice is the atonement for sin.
                                Yes, and that negates universal salvation.

                                "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 Jn 2:2)

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                But it's like making a vaccine for the Bubonic plague available to every person on the planet - only those who take advantage of the vaccine get to remain alive.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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