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Universalism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Universalists are very good at philosophy, mainly because they are very bad at scripture interpretation. There are some verses and concepts you can take out of context to make an argument for universalism, but Jesus made perfectly clear that some will not be saved. Also note Hebrews 3:11: "They will never enter my rest."

    I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping everybody will be saved, because 2 Peter 3:9 says the same thing. But when you outright say that it will happen, it becomes a problem.
    They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    • #32
      Universalism is a lazy man's excuse to ignore the Great Commission.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Wesley was not a universalist.
        Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???
          Just because the Methodists didn't start out that way doesn't mean they haven't strayed from their roots.

          My Dad was saved while attending the United Church of Canada, once a Bible believing evangelical organization. It now is a travesty of what it used to be because it accepts every popular idea the culture throws at us and has even changed their hymnal to include hymns to "mother" God.

          Any church, without standing on the firm foundation of God's word, will stray into heresy and tolerance of sin.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Then how on earth can my Methodist church teach it???
            Many mainline churches have gone to "mass appeal" - watering down their beliefs to lure in the masses. Interestingly enough, those denominations are the ones that continue to die out, and those that stand firm on the Word of God are growing or holding their own.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
              They may not be saved but perhaps they could be somewhere that is not Heaven after their punishment has passed (assuming, of course, that their interpretations of αἰώνιος and αἰών hold).
              This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                This is just speculation with no basis in Scripture.
                True*. But is it against Scripture?

                EDIT:
                *- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.
                Last edited by Quantum Weirdness; 09-11-2019, 04:50 PM.
                -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
                Sir James Jeans

                -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
                Sir Isaac Newton

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
                  True*. But is it against Scripture?

                  EDIT:
                  *- It may have a basis in that the bible describes the nature of God, but since Scripture does not explicitly say it, I'll agree for sake of discussion.
                  I would argue it is. Consider the contrast of eternal punishment and eternal life in Matthew 25. This doesn't seem to leave room for somebody who stays alive forever, not in a state of punishment, but in a state of limbo (to use an example from folk theology, which contrary to proper belief was never actually adopted as an official view of the Catholic Church). You could argue that this is a form of "eternal life", but this clearly goes against how Scripture otherwise uses the phrase "eternal life".

                  As far as arguing from the nature of God - this is one of the most common arguments for universalism, and there's a major problem. People who conclude that the nature of God as revealed in Scripture could not permit eternal conscious torment jump right from there to universalism, but that completely ignores the possibility of annihilationism (which has much more of a biblical case than universalism), as well as some of the "low quality of life" eternal conscious punishment views like those of Glenn Miller, Alexander Pruss, and C.S. Lewis.
                  Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-11-2019, 06:09 PM.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    Is there any biblical support for Universalism?
                    I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent? And if so, will his word not accomplish his purpose (Isa. 55:10-11)?

                    I am a "soft universalist", I see reason to hope that all will repent, yet I'm unwilling to state categorically that all will repent. I believe eternity will be unlike anyone expects, with annihilationism true, and eternal punishment true, and God all in all.

                    I'm asking because a deacon of my church will be teaching Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" in an upcoming Bible study.
                    Well, I'm not a fan of Rob Bell, he seems to have strayed from the text.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      I'm trying to find out what the founder of the Methodist church, John Wesley, said about Universalim. But my research keeps coming up talking about John Wesley Hanson.
                      I'm having trouble finding anything directly by Wesley. I find pages claiming he was not a universalist, I find pages claiming he became a universalist late in life. I find links to a scholarly book by James Ellison that is entirely devoted to the topic of John Wesley and Universalism. The summaries and teases suggest he was at least inclined in the direction of universalism.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Nationalist.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent?
                        No. Commandments were made to be obeyed or rejected. Man decides whether to do either. It is His purpose for man to choose.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          I believe there is reason to hope that all will repent, from Scripture. For example, when God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), is it his purpose that all repent? And if so, will his word not accomplish his purpose (Isa. 55:10-11)?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          I agree with the hope thing. God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Perhaps some will have to go through hell to get to heaven.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            No. Commandments were made to be obeyed or rejected. Man decides whether to do either. It is His purpose for man to choose.
                            If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Scripture is clear that the way is narrow and few will find it, but the road to destruction is broad, and many will find that one.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                If God desires all men to be saved will His word go out in void?
                                Peter said God was not willing that any should perish - that was His word, and it's not returning void.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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