Originally posted by NorrinRadd
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Christians and Trump--two perspectives
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Last edited by Adrift; 09-29-2019, 08:54 PM.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI can understand if some Christians find their consciences don't permit them to vote for someone like Trump. I think it is unwise to follow that course if it has the effect of supporting or electing a pro-abortion, anti-Bill-of-Rights candidate. And I think their points about it being a "bad witness" are speculative and mostly irrelevant. But I'd hardly ever be inclined to suggest they are "bad Christians."
But ISTM they do not have the same attitude toward those of us who voted for Trump, and who are loath to criticize him, even when he may deserve it, because of the clamoring hordes denouncing him for anything and everything. They generally are a bunch of nattering self-righteous prigs. (So, ok, in that sense I *do* consider them "bad Christians.")
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDo you feel that you would have thought this way had Hillary won? It's so weird seeing Christians say that character doesn't matter anymore, when for years it used to almost be the Christian mantra. The idea went something like "how can we trust a man to be faithful to his country if he can't be faithful to his wife," or some such. And I think there's teeth to that. It a man can't be held trustworthy in the smaller or more personal things, how much more trustworthy can we expect him to be with the great or public things? It seems to me that the concern should be less on what a candidate promises to do, but what they actually do, and how they go about doing it. Do you believe there are lines (ethically or legally) that President Trump should be able to cross if it means he gets the job done?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I have a hard time seeing sincerity when a change of mind after decades of the status quo Adrift mentions suddenly changes when it's politically convenient, just like how I don't see any deep theological reflection in the Grahams removing Mormonism from the cult list of their website right before 2012. It will remain to be told what happens if in the future the Democrats nominate a libertine Hollywood actor. Somehow I feel that character will matter then again, just like how character seems to matter in the case of Pete Buttigieg being gay (Robert Gagnon wrote a long essay about how it's okay to overlook Trump's personality but not Buttigieg's homosexuality, which just strikes me as special pleading)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Marital infidelity: we can deduce Trump hasn't had any affairs in the past few years, as the media would otherwise have 24/7 coverage on it. Trump is keeping it in his pants, which removes the most serious moral objection.
Character issues in general: many evangelicals are starting to take the culture war seriously. In a war some normal rules are suspended, therefore alliance with Trump is now thinkable.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think the problem is that both parties seem to be putting forth candidates who are unworthy. It's really a crying shame.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI would simply prefer that Christians be consistent in how they approach the situation. Franklin Graham declaring that Bill Clinton's sexual immorality is impeachable, then that Trump's is "nobody's business", then that Peter Buttigieg's is a deal breaker, sends a clear message to the world that Christian morality is flexible.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI have a hard time seeing sincerity when a change of mind after decades of the status quo Adrift mentions suddenly changes when it's politically convenient, just like how I don't see any deep theological reflection in the Grahams removing Mormonism from the cult list of their website right before 2012. It will remain to be told what happens if in the future the Democrats nominate a libertine Hollywood actor. Somehow I feel that character will matter then again, just like how character seems to matter in the case of Pete Buttigieg being gay (Robert Gagnon wrote a long essay about how it's okay to overlook Trump's personality but not Buttigieg's homosexuality, which just strikes me as special pleading).
WRT Graham and Mormonism, that was shifty and sleazy. I made a slight Facebook stink about it at the time, even while backing Romney for POTUS. That is, I castigated Graham as a weasel, and characterized Mormons as nice, moral infidels in a pseudo-Christian cult, but still supported Mitt over Barry.Last edited by NorrinRadd; 10-03-2019, 05:36 AM.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDo you feel that you would have thought this way had Hillary won?
It's so weird seeing Christians say that character doesn't matter anymore, when for years it used to almost be the Christian mantra. The idea went something like "how can we trust a man to be faithful to his country if he can't be faithful to his wife," or some such.
And I think there's teeth to that. It a man can't be held trustworthy in the smaller or more personal things, how much more trustworthy can we expect him to be with the great or public things? It seems to me that the concern should be less on what a candidate promises to do, but what they actually do, and how they go about doing it.
Do you believe there are lines (ethically or legally) that President Trump should be able to cross if it means he gets the job done?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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One interesting thing Gagnon says:
Nor do I know such a NeverTrumper who asserts that we should not honor the memory of MLK because he was a serial philanderer right up to the day of his death.]Last edited by KingsGambit; 10-03-2019, 12:19 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think the problem is that both parties seem to be putting forth candidates who are unworthy. It's really a crying shame.
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Originally posted by metacrock View PostNone of the DEms are unworthy, none of the repubs were worth a damn,"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by metacrock View PostNone of the DEms are unworthy, none of the repubs were worth a damn,The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI am so glad to see such an incredibly unbiased and level headed assessment.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostNot for no reason the "crock" in the username.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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