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Christians and Trump--two perspectives

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    I think the real question is why anyone cares? Why is it so important to people whether Trump is, or is not, an evangelical protestant?
    I don't really think anybody is claiming him to be an evangelical protestant - some are claiming he's a Christian based on second or third person testimony. And "Christian" can have a wide range of definitions.

    Christian conservatives seem quite invested in selling him as one, and as the second-coming of Reagan.
    Some conservatives, perhaps. I consider myself a 'c', but I tolerate Trump reasonably well.

    The left-wing seem to think they score a significant point if they point out that he isn't the genuine article but is only playing the ear of the religious right.
    And what politician does NOT play to their base, or whoever they think they can get to vote for them?

    To Christians, at the end of the day whether Trump is a Christian or not, is between him and God.
    That's my position! I don't see him making any claims to be a Christian, and I'm a little skeptical of the reports, but --- yeah, that's between him and God.

    I think his public statements don't exactly overpower me with a sense that he has the faith. However, there's a matter of record of what sort of political actions he taking. Is he a friend or foe of the religious right. And it appears he wants to be seen as a friend, and therefore the Religious Right in turn will treat him as one.
    I think he's a far greater "friend" than Hillary ever would have been on a number of levels regarding religious freedom, abortion, and court appointments.

    Obama, Clinton and Kennedy all claimed to be right believing Christians, and yet you can't exactly say their policies were all that friendly towards the religious communities.

    At the end of the day it is those decisions that we are interested in. So if it turned out tomorrow that it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Trump was in fact an atheist, then I'd say its the kind of Christian atheist I'd want in office.
    Something like that.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • #17
      I would simply prefer that Christians be consistent in how they approach the situation. Franklin Graham declaring that Bill Clinton's sexual immorality is impeachable, then that Trump's is "nobody's business", then that Peter Buttigieg's is a deal breaker, sends a clear message to the world that Christian morality is flexible.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I would simply prefer that Christians be consistent in how they approach the situation. Franklin Graham declaring that Bill Clinton's sexual immorality is impeachable, then that Trump's is "nobody's business", then that Peter Buttigieg's is a deal breaker, sends a clear message to the world that Christian morality is flexible.
        Well, there are a few important distinctions (assuming your assumptions are accurate).....

        A) Bill Clinton brought his immorality into the White House
        2) As far as I know, Trump's immorality is not continuing - though I certainly could be wrong
        C) Buttigieg's immorality is very much "in your face" and is actually a "proud" part of his campaign.

        Other than that, sure.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Well, there are a few important distinctions (assuming your assumptions are accurate).....

          A) Bill Clinton brought his immorality into the White House
          2) As far as I know, Trump's immorality is not continuing - though I certainly could be wrong
          C) Buttigieg's immorality is very much "in your face" and is actually a "proud" part of his campaign.

          Other than that, sure.
          Outright declaring it "nobody's business" seems to imply that any discussion of anybody's personal life is off limits, though. I don't think "bringing it into the White House" is a meaningful distinction in that regard.

          Also, given that Trump said fairly recently that he has never asked God for forgiveness, it is likely he has not repented, too.

          To me, the whole "nobody's business" thing sounds a lot like what Jimmy Swaggart said when he was confronted with his own immorality.

          This sounds an awful lot like rationalizing a way to make one of these men in the clear, and only one.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Outright declaring it "nobody's business" seems to imply that any discussion of anybody's personal life is off limits, though.
            I wasn't aware of that, and I don't agree. We should care about the character of people we elect to office.

            I don't think "bringing it into the White House" is a meaningful distinction in that regard.
            Why? If, for example, Clinton and Trump were both pretty much reprobates, and one of them appears to have cleaned up his act regarding his role as POTUS....

            Also, given that Trump said fairly recently that he has never asked God for forgiveness, it is likely he has not repented, too.
            Which is why I've never defended him as a "practicing Christian", and have always had doubts about whatever "conversion" there reportedly was.

            To me, the whole "nobody's business" thing sounds a lot like what Jimmy Swaggart said when he was confronted with his own immorality.
            Yes, kinda like another DFW Televangelist (whose name I cannot recall) who screamed "I'm not accountable to you - I'm only accountable to God" before he was exposed as a reprobate.

            This sounds an awful lot like rationalizing a way to make one of these men in the clear, and only one.
            "In the clear" for what? I think it's pretty well known that I voted for the evil of two lessers, and have never touted Trump's Christianity or Christian virtues.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              "In the clear" for what? I think it's pretty well known that I voted for the evil of two lessers, and have never touted Trump's Christianity or Christian virtues.
              That was based upon a misunderstanding on my part. I thought based on what somebody had said that Graham had used the word "deal breaker" based on Buttigieg's sexual sin alone, and thought that the idea that that alone would disqualify him was a double standard. But I can't find any evidence he ever actually said that. I still think the idea that he is willing to publicly speak about one but not the other is a double standard, though.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke
                Which is why I've never defended him as a "practicing Christian", and have always had doubts about whatever "conversion" there reportedly was.
                I'm honestly not all that interested. At most reports from certain Christian leaders about Trump's piety are either correct, or its possible that they're just seeing what they want to see. At the end of the day it just doesn't matter to the voter whether Trump is genuinely a Christian, or whether he politically caters to the Christians.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  I'm honestly not all that interested. At most reports from certain Christian leaders about Trump's piety are either correct, or its possible that they're just seeing what they want to see. At the end of the day it just doesn't matter to the voter whether Trump is genuinely a Christian, or whether he politically caters to the Christians.
                  All things being equal, I'd prefer someone who was upfront about not being religious than somebody who put on a front about being a Christian.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    All things being equal, I'd prefer someone who was upfront about not being religious than somebody who put on a front about being a Christian.
                    I'd rather have a satanist who pretended to be a Christian, and worked to implement Christian principles, than someone calling themselves a Christian, while working in the exact opposite direction.

                    I'm honestly glad I live in Denmark, no party here is trying to stop abortion, so I don't have to hold my nose and sacrifice all of my political principles.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I'm honestly not all that interested. At most reports from certain Christian leaders about Trump's piety are either correct, or its possible that they're just seeing what they want to see. At the end of the day it just doesn't matter to the voter whether Trump is genuinely a Christian, or whether he politically caters to the Christians.
                      It matters to me - if he were loudly proclaiming his faith and still acting the jerk, it would bother me. It matters to me for the same reason it matters to me with everyone I know - I wanna see EVERYBODY in Heaven. No, I'm not a universalist - just really, really hopeful.

                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        It matters to me - if he were loudly proclaiming his faith and still acting the jerk, it would bother me. It matters to me for the same reason it matters to me with everyone I know - I wanna see EVERYBODY in Heaven. No, I'm not a universalist - just really, really hopeful.
                        You don't need to be afraid anybody thinks you sound like a universalist there. What you said is pretty much 2 Peter 3:9.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I accidentally stumbled across this page where Robert Gagnon pushes back forcefully against Never-Trumper David French's attack on Franklin Graham (and accordingly, on other evangelicals who support Trump). Pretty thorough.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Nationalist.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            I accidentally stumbled across this page where Robert Gagnon pushes back forcefully against Never-Trumper David French's attack on Franklin Graham (and accordingly, on other evangelicals who support Trump). Pretty thorough.
                            MORE stuff to read...




















                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              You don't need to be afraid anybody thinks you sound like a universalist there. What you said is pretty much 2 Peter 3:9.
                              Any Christian should wish for all other people to be saved, no matter how greater a sinner, even themselves.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I'm honestly not all that interested. At most reports from certain Christian leaders about Trump's piety are either correct, or its possible that they're just seeing what they want to see. At the end of the day it just doesn't matter to the voter whether Trump is genuinely a Christian, or whether he politically caters to the Christians.
                                It doesn't matter to me from the perspective that he never ran on a "I'm a religious guy" platform, and the only reason it matters to the liberals is because they tout Buttigieg as a REAL Christian. Buttigieg has, of course, attacked the faith of both Trump and Pence, while claiming he doesn't do that.

                                The Democrats are trying to solve their God problem by touting pro-abortion pro-homosexual candidates as the "right kind" of Christians.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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