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Christians and Trump--two perspectives

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  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Nor will I rule out a candidate on "character" grounds. I'll pray, of course, but as far as the "natural" realm is concerned, I'll vote based on what the candidate promises to DO.
    Do you feel that you would have thought this way had Hillary won? It's so weird seeing Christians say that character doesn't matter anymore, when for years it used to almost be the Christian mantra. The idea went something like "how can we trust a man to be faithful to his country if he can't be faithful to his wife," or some such. And I think there's teeth to that. It a man can't be held trustworthy in the smaller or more personal things, how much more trustworthy can we expect him to be with the great or public things? It seems to me that the concern should be less on what a candidate promises to do, but what they actually do, and how they go about doing it. Do you believe there are lines (ethically or legally) that President Trump should be able to cross if it means he gets the job done?
    Last edited by Adrift; 09-29-2019, 09:54 PM.

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    • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      I can understand if some Christians find their consciences don't permit them to vote for someone like Trump. I think it is unwise to follow that course if it has the effect of supporting or electing a pro-abortion, anti-Bill-of-Rights candidate. And I think their points about it being a "bad witness" are speculative and mostly irrelevant. But I'd hardly ever be inclined to suggest they are "bad Christians."

      But ISTM they do not have the same attitude toward those of us who voted for Trump, and who are loath to criticize him, even when he may deserve it, because of the clamoring hordes denouncing him for anything and everything. They generally are a bunch of nattering self-righteous prigs. (So, ok, in that sense I *do* consider them "bad Christians.")
      I certainly don't feel that way about those who voted Trump.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Do you feel that you would have thought this way had Hillary won? It's so weird seeing Christians say that character doesn't matter anymore, when for years it used to almost be the Christian mantra. The idea went something like "how can we trust a man to be faithful to his country if he can't be faithful to his wife," or some such. And I think there's teeth to that. It a man can't be held trustworthy in the smaller or more personal things, how much more trustworthy can we expect him to be with the great or public things? It seems to me that the concern should be less on what a candidate promises to do, but what they actually do, and how they go about doing it. Do you believe there are lines (ethically or legally) that President Trump should be able to cross if it means he gets the job done?
        I think the problem is that both parties seem to be putting forth candidates who are unworthy. It's really a crying shame.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • I have a hard time seeing sincerity when a change of mind after decades of the status quo Adrift mentions suddenly changes when it's politically convenient, just like how I don't see any deep theological reflection in the Grahams removing Mormonism from the cult list of their website right before 2012. It will remain to be told what happens if in the future the Democrats nominate a libertine Hollywood actor. Somehow I feel that character will matter then again, just like how character seems to matter in the case of Pete Buttigieg being gay (Robert Gagnon wrote a long essay about how it's okay to overlook Trump's personality but not Buttigieg's homosexuality, which just strikes me as special pleading).
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • Marital infidelity: we can deduce Trump hasn't had any affairs in the past few years, as the media would otherwise have 24/7 coverage on it. Trump is keeping it in his pants, which removes the most serious moral objection.

            Character issues in general: many evangelicals are starting to take the culture war seriously. In a war some normal rules are suspended, therefore alliance with Trump is now thinkable.
            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I think the problem is that both parties seem to be putting forth candidates who are unworthy. It's really a crying shame.
              When have they ever? It's just that now they're even less worthy.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I would simply prefer that Christians be consistent in how they approach the situation. Franklin Graham declaring that Bill Clinton's sexual immorality is impeachable, then that Trump's is "nobody's business", then that Peter Buttigieg's is a deal breaker, sends a clear message to the world that Christian morality is flexible.
                It also sends the message that ethical judgements are based on partisan politics or on identity politics

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                • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I have a hard time seeing sincerity when a change of mind after decades of the status quo Adrift mentions suddenly changes when it's politically convenient, just like how I don't see any deep theological reflection in the Grahams removing Mormonism from the cult list of their website right before 2012. It will remain to be told what happens if in the future the Democrats nominate a libertine Hollywood actor. Somehow I feel that character will matter then again, just like how character seems to matter in the case of Pete Buttigieg being gay (Robert Gagnon wrote a long essay about how it's okay to overlook Trump's personality but not Buttigieg's homosexuality, which just strikes me as special pleading).
                  If you are referring to Gagnon's article here, ISTM that you are seriously misrepresenting it.


                  WRT Graham and Mormonism, that was shifty and sleazy. I made a slight Facebook stink about it at the time, even while backing Romney for POTUS. That is, I castigated Graham as a weasel, and characterized Mormons as nice, moral infidels in a pseudo-Christian cult, but still supported Mitt over Barry.
                  Last edited by NorrinRadd; 10-03-2019, 06:36 AM.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Do you feel that you would have thought this way had Hillary won?
                    Her policy preferences give me more than enough to carp about.

                    It's so weird seeing Christians say that character doesn't matter anymore, when for years it used to almost be the Christian mantra. The idea went something like "how can we trust a man to be faithful to his country if he can't be faithful to his wife," or some such.
                    Right. That was in the days of Slick Willy. We may have focused too much on that. OTOH, his randy ways were not years in the past, which AFAWK is the case with Bad Orange Man, but were ongoing, bringing a stain on the office -- among other things.

                    And I think there's teeth to that. It a man can't be held trustworthy in the smaller or more personal things, how much more trustworthy can we expect him to be with the great or public things? It seems to me that the concern should be less on what a candidate promises to do, but what they actually do, and how they go about doing it.
                    Well, with a first-time politician, that track record doesn't exist.

                    Do you believe there are lines (ethically or legally) that President Trump should be able to cross if it means he gets the job done?
                    I want to say, "No," except that every week brings one or two more examples where a bunch of experts say Trump is breaking the law, and a bunch of others say he is not, or that he's violating ethical standards, while others claim he's breaking norms but not doing anything unethical.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      If you are referring to Gagnon's article here, ISTM that you are seriously misrepresenting it.
                      Yes, that particular article. I mean "overlook" in terms of being a deal-breaker for support. I maintain that's a fair summary, with the caveat that he adds the weight of the big two social issues to his calculation.

                      One interesting thing Gagnon says:

                      Nor do I know such a NeverTrumper who asserts that we should not honor the memory of MLK because he was a serial philanderer right up to the day of his death.]
                      I actually do lean in that direction.
                      Last edited by KingsGambit; 10-03-2019, 01:19 PM.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I think the problem is that both parties seem to be putting forth candidates who are unworthy. It's really a crying shame.
                        None of the DEms are unworthy, none of the repubs were worth a damn,
                        Metacrock's Blog


                        The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

                        The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

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                        • Originally posted by metacrock View Post
                          None of the DEms are unworthy, none of the repubs were worth a damn,
                          All the Dems? Even Marianne Williamson?
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by metacrock View Post
                            None of the DEms are unworthy, none of the repubs were worth a damn,
                            I am so glad to see such an incredibly unbiased and level headed assessment.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I am so glad to see such an incredibly unbiased and level headed assessment.
                              Not for no reason the "crock" in the username.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Nationalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                Not for no reason the "crock" in the username.
                                But he misspelled "mega".
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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