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Why crucified?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
    Welcome Back Apostoli!! Glad to see you're alive and kicking!!!
    Thanks. I'm alive but plodding along is a better description for my current predicament ;-}

    In the last few weeks I've been in hospital and have had nearly every test and scan known to modern medicine, including bone marrow extraction (oouch that hurt). At one stage they were talking blood transfusions because my platelet count was so low. The Drs can't account for the low platelets, at some stage they figured I had internal bleeding somewhere in the body, they just couldn't find where (?) All my major organs seem OK, no sign of cancer though one set of indicators suggest I have a malignancy somewhere (?) Anyway, I'm now an outpatient under self care, which means I have to turn up to the hospital twice a week so they can monitor my blood etc.

    Strange thing is: As long as I'm not too active, I feel pretty good...now I am out of hospital...
    Last edited by apostoli; 05-03-2014, 07:54 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Sorry, I did misread your post. It was worded a bit vague to me. I reread it in light of you post above and I see I was mistaken.

      No worries.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        That's not what I was saying.

        Sin is a debt we owe God. A kinsmen redeemer can pay the debt in place of a relative to remove the debt owed. That is what Jesus did for us. It is not about "being obedient" - that would just be us trying to pay our own debt and we already know we can't do that.
        Sparko, as continuation of our conversation in the SB, do you mind citing one of the "many" examples in Scripture where Jesus pays our debt?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by apostoli View Post
          Thanks. I'm alive but plodding along is a better description for my current predicament ;-}

          In the last few weeks I've been in hospital and have had nearly every test and scan known to modern medicine, including bone marrow extraction (oouch that hurt). At one stage they were talking blood transfusions because my platelet count was so low. The Drs can't account for the low platelets, at some stage they figured I had internal bleeding somewhere in the body, they just couldn't find where (?) All my major organs seem OK, no sign of cancer though one set of indicators suggest I have a malignancy somewhere (?) Anyway, I'm now an outpatient under self care, which means I have to turn up to the hospital twice a week so they can monitor my blood etc.

          Strange thing is: As long as I'm not too active, I feel pretty good...now I am out of hospital...
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by princesa View Post
            Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love. Thank you.
            I would suggest that the answer depends on how you define love.

            If you define love as an emotion that makes someone feel good, then its real hard to explain the crucifixion under these terms.

            If you define love as a motivation to be involved with other people and to attempt to make their lives better, then the crucifixion starts making sense. Since God wants us to be in fellowship with Him and that is good, then He would take whatever action is necessary to restore the relationship. Then the crucifixion as an action to restore peoples' relationship with God as an act of love starts to make sense.

            By the way, I hope you realize that "God is love" and "love is God" are not equivalent statements. God is love or God has the attribute of love is absolutely true. One has to beware of elevating love to being a (false) god.

            Finally, good to see you back.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              My "theory" is that in order for us to have free will and NOT sin after the judgment, we have to have a personal knowledge and experience of how bad sin really is. Adam didn't have that knowledge and he sinned. But seeing what sin does in our own lives, to those we love, and the sacrifice Jesus made for our sins, will make it possible for us to not sin in the next life and yet retain free will.
              So the reason we sin is that we lack full information? it is more than that. We need new hearts.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by princesa View Post
                I wondered if another option other than crucifixion would have set us free...like 'make us perfect with free will' or something else that would show love for us in a less tortuous manner.
                All we know is how God actually did it. We trust that He did it the best way.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                  All we know is how God actually did it. We trust that He did it the best way.
                  "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                  "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                    So the reason we sin is that we lack full information? it is more than that. We need new hearts.
                    Well yeah. If by "heart" you mean emotional understanding, empathy, and so on.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Well yeah. If by "heart" you mean emotional understanding, empathy, and so on.
                      I'm not sure about others but I wouldn't put the emphasis on heart where you do on emotions.

                      Of course, the new heart passage is Ezekiel 11:19 which in context of 11:18-21 is:

                      They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.
                      The passage only discusses a people's relationship with God. I personally don't believe that you have to be saved in order to have "emotional understanding, empathy, and so on." You do have to be saved in order to have a heart to love and follow God. Following Him will probably increase your list but that's a secondary effect of salvation or put another way, part of the redemption process.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by princesa View Post
                        Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love. Thank you.
                        Hi, princesa. It's good to see you again. I hope you're doing ok. I see you're still asking the tough questions.

                        Why did Grandpa have to die in the war? Why does Mommy have to work two jobs? Why did that soldier throw his body onto the grenade to save his friends?

                        To none of these questions is the answer, "So that they can then forgive the person or persons that they made the sacrifice for." In other words, in these instances, as well as in That Great Instance, the sacrifice was made because of a depth of love that is unfortunately difficult for most to fathom, not to allow for this love to be expressed. It is only those children still too hard of heart and too little of faith who imagine that their Father needed to hurt their great elder Brother before He could find it in Himself to forgive them.

                        As I am sure you know all too well, dear sister, we live in a fallen world. We live in the midst of a battle between good and evil. Often it is called a "cosmic" battle, but it is a battle waged on seemingly insignificant stages as well as grand ones. The most miserable crack fiend who looks at her child, clearly suffering as a result of her own negligence, and decides that she will call upon the Lord for a strength that she cannot find in herself or die in the effort, has achieved a victory which in its own degree is as critical to the battle as the victory our Lord achieved, if not as glorious or as inspiring. Our Lord and Captain has slain that giant dragon and chopped off his head. It is for us His brothers, sisters and fellow soldiers--those of us who do the will of His Father--to finish the rout, first of the evil out from ourselves and then the evil out from the world. It is for us to fill up what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ.

                        I am confident that it is nowhere written, even in that Book of Truth which Gabriel said he had read from in heaven, that the Lord had to die by crucifixion. If it had been, why would our Lord have pleaded with His Father that the terrible cup pass from Him? He knew better than anyone else that was written must come to pass. I do not say that He did not know He would die.

                        In this fallen world, we experience pain. In His manifold wisdom, God has made it so that pain can be and often is redemptive. In the physical sense, pain leads to the protection of our bodies. In the spiritual sense, pain and the resulting suffering leads to the salvation of our souls. God bless those cheerful souls who out of the abundance of their joy come to know the Father of all gifts, but was not even our Lord called a man of sorrows? There is another and greater sense in which pain is redemptive, and that is when we fear pain for the sake of those we love. In fact, there is no greater love than this. It can drive a man or woman to glorious heights of love. It drove our Lord to the supreme act of love. He feared so much that we would be lost to the pain and suffering of sin that He came to live a life in defiance of sin and death, first to prove to the Enemy that such was possible, and then to map the way for His lost little brothers and sisters. Behold! Our strong and mighty brother has shone a great light! Behold! Our Father does love us with an endless and all-conquering love! Behold! Life is worth living, and death has no more hold on us! But we are slow to learn. For most of us, the light shone into our eyes was too bright and we sought to extinguish it. This, sadly, is why our Lord had to die. Not to satisfy a perverse and cruel sense of so-called justice, but because men fear the Light, for their deeds are evil. He could not live such a life as He lived, in the world which then was, without dying the death He died. I pray for our sakes that He would find a little more faith on the earth in these last days, but I fear that even now He would be hated unto death, even by those who most loudly proclaim His name.

                        But as I hope and trust you know, dear sister, His light was not extinguished. Because our Lord had conquered sin, He also conquered its consequence, which is death, and the grave had no hold on Him. Now, even though we may die, we live unto Him. And are we not alive indeed? Sometimes I cannot contain all the life in me, and it spills over as joy. May Jesus Christ be praised always, and may all come to know the love of the Father. God bless you.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          Why did Grandpa have to die in the war? Why does Mommy have to work two jobs? Why did that soldier throw his body onto the grenade to save his friends? To none of these questions is the answer, "So that they can then forgive the person or persons that they made the sacrifice for." In other words, in these instances, as well as in That Great Instance, the sacrifice was made because of a depth of love that is unfortunately difficult for most to fathom, not to allow for this love to be expressed. It is only those children still too hard of heart and too little of faith who imagine that their Father needed to hurt their great elder Brother before He could find it in Himself to forgive them.

                          As I am sure you know all too well, dear sister, we live in a fallen world. We live in the midst of a battle between good and evil. Often it is called a "cosmic" battle, but it is a battle waged on seemingly insignificant stages as well as grand ones. The most miserable crack fiend who looks at her child, clearly suffering as a result of her own negligence, and decides that she will call upon the Lord for a strength that she cannot find in herself or die in the effort, has achieved a victory which in its own degree is as critical to the battle as the victory our Lord achieved, if not as glorious or as inspiring. Our Lord and Captain has slain that giant dragon and chopped off his head. It is for us His brothers, sisters and fellow soldiers--those of us who do the will of His Father--to finish the rout, first of the evil out from ourselves and then the evil out from the world. It is for us to fill up what is lacking of the afflictions of Christ.

                          I am confident that it is nowhere written, even in that Book of Truth which Gabriel said he had read from in heaven, that the Lord had to die by crucifixion. If it had been, why would our Lord have pleaded with His Father that the terrible cup pass from Him? He knew better than anyone else that was written must come to pass. I do not say that He did not know He would die.

                          In this fallen world, we experience pain. In His manifold wisdom, God has made it so that pain can be and often is redemptive. In the physical sense, pain leads to the protection of our bodies. In the spiritual sense, pain and the resulting suffering leads to the salvation of our souls. God bless those cheerful souls who out of the abundance of their joy come to know the Father of all gifts, but was not even our Lord called a man of sorrows? There is another and greater sense in which pain is redemptive, and that is when we fear pain for the sake of those we love. In fact, there is no greater love than this. It can drive a man or woman to glorious heights of love. It drove our Lord to the supreme act of love. He feared so much that we would be lost to the pain and suffering of sin that He came to live a life in defiance of sin and death, first to prove to the Enemy that such was possible, and then to map the way for His lost little brothers and sisters. Behold! Our strong and mighty brother has shone a great light! Behold! Our Father does love us with an endless and all-conquering love! Behold! Life is worth living, and death has no more hold on us! But we are slow to learn. For most of us, the light shone into our eyes was too bright and we sought to extinguish it. This, sadly, is why our Lord had to die. Not to satisfy a perverse and cruel sense of so-called justice, but because men fear the Light, for their deeds are evil. He could not live such a life as He lived, in the world which then was, without dying the death He died. I pray for our sakes that He would find a little more faith on the earth in these last days, but I fear that even now He would be hated unto death, even by those who most loudly proclaim His name.

                          But as I hope and trust you know, dear sister, His light was not extinguished. Because our Lord had conquered sin, He also conquered its consequence, which is death, and the grave had no hold on Him. Now, even though we may die, we live unto Him. And are we not alive indeed? Sometimes I cannot contain all the life in me, and it spills over as joy. May Jesus Christ be praised always, and may all come to know the love of the Father. God bless you.
                          Your explanation is incoherent. Grandpa died in the war because there was a threat to be dealt with. A soldier jumps on a grenade because there was a threat to be dealt with. A soldier who jumps on a grenade which was not going to hit anyone is just throwing his life away; there's nothing "redemptive" about his suffering in and of itself. It's only redemptive if it actually saves someone else from something.

                          Jesus died on the cross because there was a threat to be dealt with. That threat was God's holy wrath over sin. You do not do God any favors by pretending that His holiness does not require perfection. As Jesus himself said: Be perfect, as your Father is perfect. Jesus did not just come to tell us to do something impossible. He came to do it for us. That is how Jesus "conquered sin."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                            Your explanation is incoherent. Grandpa died in the war because there was a threat to be dealt with. A soldier jumps on a grenade because there was a threat to be dealt with. A soldier who jumps on a grenade which was not going to hit anyone is just throwing his life away; there's nothing "redemptive" about his suffering in and of itself. It's only redemptive if it actually saves someone else from something.

                            Jesus died on the cross because there was a threat to be dealt with. That threat was God's holy wrath over sin. You do not do God any favors by pretending that His holiness does not require perfection. As Jesus himself said: Be perfect, as your Father is perfect. Jesus did not just come to tell us to do something impossible. He came to do it for us. That is how Jesus "conquered sin."
                            I have no doubt that my explanation is incoherent to you. It's interesting that according to you, people sacrifice not out of love, but to "deal with threats." It says something about the bent of your mind and why you are so legalistic. You would rather bind God to a legal agreement than trust in your Father's love.

                            The philosophy you endorse is entirely pagan. The notion that what God desires is sacrifice and not mercy. What human father would be worthy of praise because he slaughtered his eldest son in order to avoid the nasty business of having to slaughter the rest of his children? You do not do God any favors by pretending that His holiness is really just a vapid and self-righteous demand for worship at the expense of love.

                            I agree that Jesus did not come to tell us to do the impossible. We should ask for His help to be perfect, rather than live in sin and pretend that engaging in the pagan ritual of blood bathing somehow mystically justifies us. Jesus conquered sin by making us more than conquerors in and through His name, not by making His Father turn a blind eye to sin, something He could never and would never do.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                              I have no doubt that my explanation is incoherent to you. It's interesting that according to you, people sacrifice not out of love, but to "deal with threats." It says something about the bent of your mind and why you are so legalistic.
                              Wow... more wrong thou couldst not be. Go ahead and march in the Pharisees!
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                                I have no doubt that my explanation is incoherent to you. It's interesting that according to you, people sacrifice not out of love, but to "deal with threats."
                                The two go together. Because you love someone, you sacrifice yourself to deal with a threat against him. If you said, "I'm going to sacrifice myself by jumping off this cliff to show how much I love you," I would just say, "That's dumb. If you love me, don't throw your life away for no good purpose." Jesus didn't choose the cross as just an arbitrary means of suffering. He suffered on the cross to save us from our sins by dying in our place.

                                It says something about the bent of your mind and why you are so legalistic. You would rather bind God to a legal agreement than trust in your Father's love.
                                I'm not binding God to anything. I'm just telling you what God himself says He has done, and why. Legalism is trying to earn God's favor through good works. That is the opposite of what I'm saying. I could never earn God's favor through my imperfect works. I need God himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, to do the work that He demands of me.

                                The philosophy you endorse is entirely pagan. The notion that what God desires is sacrifice and not mercy. What human father would be worthy of praise because he slaughtered his eldest son in order to avoid the nasty business of having to slaughter the rest of his children? You do not do God any favors by pretending that His holiness is really just a vapid and self-righteous demand for worship at the expense of love.
                                Jesus is God. God gave himself.

                                I agree that Jesus did not come to tell us to do the impossible. We should ask for His help to be perfect, rather than live in sin and pretend that engaging in the pagan ritual of blood bathing somehow mystically justifies us. Jesus conquered sin by making us more than conquerors in and through His name, not by making His Father turn a blind eye to sin, something He could never and would never do.
                                Jesus did indeed make us conquerors. As I said on the first page of this thread, there are several aspects to Jesus' atoning work, and the one you say here is one of them. But the Old Testament is more than some "pagan ritual of blood letting." The New Testament book of Hebrews confirms that we are supposed to think of Jesus' sacrifice in terms of the Old Testament sacrificial system. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22)

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