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Why crucified?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by princesa View Post
    Originally posted by OBP
    Jesus died to ransom us from the power of the grave (Hos. 13:14)
    This means He died to save us from earthly death and eternal salvation, yes?
    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. We still die, but the grave can no longer hold us.
    I wondered if another option other than crucifixion would have set us free...like 'make us perfect with free will' or something else that would show love for us in a less tortuous manner.
    We were made perfect with free will.

    Originally posted by OBP
    Crucifixion is how the Adversary chose to exact payment.
    What do you mean? It was God who chose to crucify Jesus/Himself, was it not? thanks
    No, Jesus only allowed Himself to be crucified.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. We still die, but the grave can no longer hold us.

      We were made perfect with free will.


      No, Jesus only allowed Himself to be crucified.
      When you stated the adversary chose this method of extracting payment it sounds like he was holding the cards that Jesus/God had to succumb to. That's how it sounded. But Jesus allowed himself your saying, to accept this exact payment from the adversary. ok.

      i thought it was because we were 'not' perfect that Jesus had to die on the cross. Because he is holy and he demands a perfection from us we don't have. it's somewhere in this thread, i'll check later.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by princesa View Post
        When you stated the adversary chose this method of extracting payment it sounds like he was holding the cards that Jesus/God had to succumb to. That's how it sounded. But Jesus allowed himself your saying, to accept this exact payment from the adversary. ok.
        the latter, yes.
        i thought it was because we were 'not' perfect that Jesus had to die on the cross. Because he is holy and he demands a perfection from us we don't have. it's somewhere in this thread, i'll check later.
        Some hold to that model of the atonement. I don't.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          Here are some of the reasons Jesus died for our salvation:

          1. He was to be the perfect sacrifice in order to remove the sin of Jacob and fulfill the Old Testament need for sacrifice. This also was showing that the Old Testament images were a type of the fulfillment to come through Christ.

          2. He had to die in the flesh-and-blood so we would be living based on His resurrection power -- knowing Him according to the Spirit instead of the flesh.

          3. He had to redirect the Jewish expectation ... turning the expectation into one based on God's fuller revelation. They were no longer to be searching for redemption simply by earthly political forces.

          4. It also is true that, as said earlier, that we are to recognize the love God showed for the world by giving His only begotten Son.

          5. We would be needing the analogy of the newness of life through death and resurrection (as described in Rom 6). This would help us overcome the fleshly pressures.

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          • #20
            The key to unlock the secret of the Cross lies in seeing the Cross as an investment.

            Unless a seed dies it cannot become a plant.

            Dying to oneself is setting aside ones own desires, wishes and objectives , and taking up God's objectives, investing with Him.

            Israel was pursuaded from depending on Egypt ( the world) for survival to depending on God, and shockingly, He asks them to risk their lives against giants. Really what He was asking them to do was to pick up their Cross (continue to invest with God, as they had in leaving Egypt ) so that they can enter His rest (enjoy returns on investment, drink from wells they did not dig, eat crops they did not plant, live in houses they did not build, rest from their own labor, just as God rested after He made an investment in Creation and Adam, getting exactly the results He desired, to manifest His Glory).

            Any banker will tell you that good investments have costs, but they are not non performing outlays like buying an extra car, a pink one , which is rarely used, and depreciates, but the good investments are opportunity costs, costs that open up opportunities.

            The biblical analogies are agrarian, because biblical society was agrarian, but I'm a city slicker...

            The Cross is a cost, and Jesus picked up that Cross by preaching a foolish Gospel, that Messiah saved the World by being the perfect sacrifice depicted in Torah. This earned Him stripes, the expiatory work for sin, and death, the propitiatory work for sin.

            The candy store owner aka Adversary, wants his candy back (expiation, removal of the effects of the crime) and death for the offender (propitiation, removal of the cause of the crime) to return to the equilibrium of operating his candy store in a stable manner.

            We are to be perfect, like Christ was perfect, like He was mature and full of wisdom, and preach the same Gospel.

            Quote
            The apostles are in a position to perform this task because they are in Christ, through whom “God was reconciling the world to himself” (5:19). Jesus became sin—he was crucified as an enemy of Israel and of YHWH, a blasphemer, a false claimant to the throne of Israel. But that led, paradoxically, to real enemies of God such as Paul becoming the “righteousness of God”, the means by which YHWH is justified. As Wright says in the podcast, the apostles embody the covenant faithfulness of God in their ministry.

            In effect, what Paul is claiming is that the apostles are right, they embody the rightness of God, they are justified in making this appeal, because they are in Christ, as is clearly evidenced by their suffering (6:4-10)—they carry in their bodies the dying of Jesus (4:10). This is not an abstract argument about the imputation of righteousness through faith. It is a practical argument: the apostles make their appeal on the ground that they are acting out the role of Christ-like servants, who commend themselves by accepting, as Jesus accepted, hardships, persecution, distrust, abuse, and punishment.
            http://www.postost.net/2013/04/wrigh...orinthians-521
            Last edited by footwasher; 05-01-2014, 02:32 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by princesa View Post
              Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love. Thank you.
              Okay, a completely serious answer this time.

              Because the Israelites were called to be the means through which the effects of the sin of Adam would be overcome, but there was no faithful Israelite. Jesus was the faithful Israelite, who lived a life completely faithful to God, culminating in his death, so that Jesus fulfilling the calling of Israel allows God's salvation plan to get back on track, for the promises to Abraham to be fulfilled.
              Last edited by Paprika; 05-01-2014, 02:28 AM.

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              • #22
                Read the story of Ruth and Boaz. Jesus is our Kinsman Redeemer. That is why he had to be one of us. As for the actual cross, I don't think it had to be a cross, but it had to be public and it had to be a sacrifice in our place.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by princesa View Post
                  Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love. Thank you.
                  Point of fact: Jesus' sacrifice was totally unnecessary from a judicial (God the Father's) perspective! Several times in the OT YHWH declares that he did not desire sacrifices!!! For instance: Mt 9:13 & 12:7 referring to Hosea 6:6 openly have God declaring " I desired mercy, and not sacrifice". Mt 12:7 is worth thinking about: " if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless".

                  So why was Jesus crucified? The usual protestant babel about original sin is directly refuted by Ezekiel 18 eg; vs20,25-28 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him...ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

                  So why was Jesus crucified? Simply: to end the stupidity of the man made invention of "sacrifice". It is interesting to note that the first sacrifice noted in the OT is that of Cain and we all know how that turned out. It is also worth noting YHWH's reaction to Noah's sacrifice offering after the landing of the Ark = " the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen 8:21). Pointedly: Jesus' death and resurrection put an end to all the stupidities of the temple sacrifices and the insanities of the Mosaic ordinances. We have been freed to worship in spirit and truth!!!

                  So why was Jesus crucified? Imo, Sparko is on the money when he speaks of our kinsman redeemer. From Ezekiel 18 we learn that each of us is responsible for our own transgressions, each of us in effect sells ourselves into the slavery of sin by being resistant to the will of the Father, and frothing at the mouth allured to the will of the flesh. Jesus death and resurrection gives us a tangible example of the benefits that can be derived by being obedient to the will of his Father.

                  As A.Paul intimates: without the resurrection, Jesus' crucifixion is meaningless.

                  Originally posted by princesa View Post
                  Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love.
                  Personally, I'd steer clear of discussion the crucifixion with a child, and would divert the conversation to the resurrection and the promise of our future participation in it!
                  Last edited by apostoli; 05-01-2014, 10:22 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                    So why was Jesus crucified? Imo, Sparko is on the money when he speaks of our kinsman redeemer. From Ezekiel 18 we learn that each of us is responsible for our own transgressions, each of us in effect sells ourselves into the slavery of sin by being resistant to the will of the Father, and frothing at the mouth allured to the will of the flesh. Jesus death and resurrection gives us a tangible example of the benefits that can be derived by being obedient to the will of his Father.
                    That's not what I was saying.

                    Sin is a debt we owe God. A kinsmen redeemer can pay the debt in place of a relative to remove the debt owed. That is what Jesus did for us. It is not about "being obedient" - that would just be us trying to pay our own debt and we already know we can't do that.

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                    • #25
                      Welcome Back Apostoli!! Glad to see you're alive and kicking!!!
                      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                      George Bernard Shaw

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by princesa View Post
                        Why did Jesus have to be crucified for our salvation? Can this be put simply, as if explaining to a child who equates God with love. Thank you.
                        For God so "LOVED" the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. but have everlasting life...

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                        • #27
                          We made ourselves slaves to sin and therefore earned death. Jesus Incarnated so that He could participate and proceeded to never sin and so when He was killed on that Cross death could not hold the Christ because He never wore the bondage of slavery to sin. Jesus made it possible for us to put on the perfect as He put on the imperfect so that those who believe in Him may have everlasting life...

                          This means in the next life we will be allowed to live perfect lives in accordance to His will with us as His people and Him as our God. See Ezekial 36 and Rev 21.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            That's not what I was saying.

                            Sin is a debt we owe God. A kinsmen redeemer can pay the debt in place of a relative to remove the debt owed. That is what Jesus did for us. It is not about "being obedient" - that would just be us trying to pay our own debt and we already know we can't do that.
                            You have misread me. I'm totally reliant on the witness of A.Paul. Jesus was rewarded because of his obedience to his Father (Phil 2:8-11), and it was solely his obedience to the Father that gives him value to the Father for the satisfaction of our moral debt (the penalty of sin is death, so that debt is already paid, given, that without the Father's acceptance of the Son's payment (his free gift to us), we are (were) enslaved to death).

                            Most of mankind has a tendency to follow the will of the flesh and ignore God the Father's will (cp Rom 8:5), thus selling ourselves into the slavery of sin (cp. Jn 8:32-34). This is where the teaching of the kinsman redeemer comes in...

                            The biblical metaphor is of one who cannot repay his debts and therefore sells himself into slavery as the repayment for the debt. A kinsman could repurchase his kin by satisfying the debt in some way (either by exchange or direct payment). Of course the repayment of the debt has to be to the satisfaction of the creditor (in the discussed case, the Father)

                            Sparko: Next time, before you go off half cocked, as you have a tendency to do, read what someone posts and have a careful read of the scriptures. Everything I related is fully in accord with NT teaching and at no time did I even vaguely suggest "that would just be us trying to pay our own debt" I demand an apology for your ignorant attribution.

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                            • #29
                              For your quesion, princesa, I recommend reading Athanasius' "On the Incarnation." He covers this question in one of his chapters in that treatise, and the answer he gives is a great deal different from most answers that we moderners give (being a man from circa A.D. 300), and should provide some good insight. I personally found him to be one of the most insightful people on the topic of why Jesus was incarnated. Granted, the treatise talks on everything related to the Incarnation, not just why Jesus had to be crucified, so be prepared for that if you intend to read it.

                              I will also give you the heads up that he does not hold to the idea that Jesus was crucified to satisfy God's wrath. He still says Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice to God, but he sees it in a completely different context and from a completely different angle than most people nowadays.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                                You have misread me. I'm totally reliant on the witness of A.Paul. Jesus was rewarded because of his obedience to his Father (Phil 2:8-11), and it was solely his obedience to the Father that gives him value to the Father for the satisfaction of our moral debt (the penalty of sin is death, so that debt is already paid, given, that without the Father's acceptance of the Son's payment (his free gift to us), we are (were) enslaved to death).

                                Most of mankind has a tendency to follow the will of the flesh and ignore God the Father's will (cp Rom 8:5), thus selling ourselves into the slavery of sin (cp. Jn 8:32-34). This is where the teaching of the kinsman redeemer comes in...

                                The biblical metaphor is of one who cannot repay his debts and therefore sells himself into slavery as the repayment for the debt. A kinsman could repurchase his kin by satisfying the debt in some way (either by exchange or direct payment). Of course the repayment of the debt has to be to the satisfaction of the creditor (in the discussed case, the Father)

                                Sparko: Next time, before you go off half cocked, as you have a tendency to do, read what someone posts and have a careful read of the scriptures. Everything I related is fully in accord with NT teaching and at no time did I even vaguely suggest "that would just be us trying to pay our own debt" I demand an apology for your ignorant attribution.

                                Sorry, I did misread your post. It was worded a bit vague to me. I reread it in light of you post above and I see I was mistaken.



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