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Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover when?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Here is a key to solving the puzzle. For argument's sake, forget the calendar dates. The Jews wanted Jesus to die and his body taken down before the beginning of the First Day of the Unleavened Bread. That is a High Sabbath. Not necessarily also a weekly Sabbath (though I think in this case it does happen to be a weekly Sabbath also, as I hope to show later). We have to surmise that, because of the haste that the Jews were shown to act in, Jesus did die on the day just before the First Day of Matzo, i.e., the Passover Day. Jesus didn't actually eat the Passover meal! He was dead then. Sure, there are some verses that seems to show that Jesus expected to eat that; let me deal with them later, please. After all, he is supposed to be the sacrifical Lamb; what more appropriate day for his death than a Passover Day?

    I pause here to see if there is any dissent.
    That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12. Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover after sunset of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:17). Jesus was crucified by the Roman government. Because it was the 15th if Nisan a holy convocation where only no servile work can be done (Numbers 28:18; Exodus 12:16 explains what that means). Joseph of Arimathaea would not have asked for the bodies until after sundown (Mark 15:42, 43). And they only had that day to place Jesus in the tomb before the 7th day Sabbath (a full rest) that followed.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.
      Now let's be careful. Let's look at this Exodus passage http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0212.htm#3 and bear in mind the passage probably follows the Jewish counting of days. So, the Passover lambs are killed in the night and consumed before the morning of 14 Nisan. Another thing I think is that Jews often refer to the Passover day as the first day of the Feast of Matzos.
      Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover after sunset of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:17).
      I believe you are in error here. What the group is then eating is not the Passover seder. I admit to being mistaken that Jesus never ate the Passover; he did eat that earlier.
      Because it was the 15th if Nisan a holy convocation where only no servile work can be done (Numbers 28:18; Exodus 12:16 explains what that means). Joseph of Arimathaea would not have asked for the bodies until after sundown (Mark 15:42, 43). And they only had that day to place Jesus in the tomb before the 7th day Sabbath (a full rest) that followed.
      I am puzzled, unless there was a day before Saturday (as the Jews count the days) in which Jesus was buried, i.e., 15 Nisan is actually Thursday, and 17 Nisan is Saturday.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        Now let's be careful. Let's look at this Exodus passage http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0212.htm#3 and bear in mind the passage probably follows the Jewish counting of days. So, the Passover lambs are killed in the night and consumed before the morning of 14 Nisan.
        No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!


        Another thing I think is that Jews often refer to the Passover day as the first day of the Feast of Matzos. I believe you are in error here. What the group is then eating is not the Passover seder. I admit to being mistaken that Jesus never ate the Passover; he did eat that earlier.
        This is a special pleading. Not in evidence. The NT text says Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover. (Mark 14:12-17, . . .)
        I am puzzled, unless there was a day before Saturday (as the Jews count the days) in which Jesus was buried, i.e., 15 Nisan is actually Thursday, and 17 Nisan is Saturday.
        It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!
          This is after the Passover Day (14th of Nisan, as the Jews count the days)? I did read something to the effect that there can be 2 days of consuming the Passover meals. That is puzzling to me.
          Perhaps you can explain.
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            This is after the Passover Day (14th of Nisan, as the Jews count the days)? I did read something to the effect that there can be 2 days of consuming the Passover meals. That is puzzling to me.
            Perhaps you can explain.
            Here is a link to a modern Jewish translation of the text Exodus 12:

            http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...Chapter-12.htm

            The historical observance was from the late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th where none of the Passover lamb was to remain. So typically today modern Jews who observe the Passover, from the evening (sunset) beginning of the 15th, the following calendar day being the 15th is the Passover marked on modern calendars. This is my understanding.

            I do not know where two days come from.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              I do not know where two days come from.
              Thank you. Readers will please excuse my faulty memory and poor reading.

              So actually two days are involved: From late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th. I incorrectly assumed only one day could be involved as far as the Passover seder is concerned. Sorry.
              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

              [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                Thank you. Readers will please excuse my faulty memory and poor reading.

                So actually two days are involved: From late afternoon of the 14th to the morning of the 15th. I incorrectly assumed only one day could be involved as far as the Passover seder is concerned. Sorry.
                OK. There is dispute as to the timing of the "evening" referred to of the 14th of Nisan (Exodus 12:6).

                Here is one commentary:
                Source: "http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/barnes/exo012.htm"

                Until the fourteenth day - It should be observed that the offering of our Lord on the self-same day is an important point in determining the typical character of the transaction. A remarkable passage in the Talmud says: "It was a famous and old opinion among the ancient Jews that the day of the new year which was the beginning of the Israelites' deliverance out of Egypt should in future time be the beginning of the redemption by the Messiah."

                In the evening - The Hebrew has between the two evenings. The meaning of the expression is disputed. The most probable explanation is that it includes the time from afternoon, or early eventide, until sunset. This accords with the ancient custom of the Hebrews, who killed the paschal lamb immediately after the offering of the daily sacrifice, which on the day of the Passover took place a little earlier than usual, between two and three p.m. This would allow about two hours and a half for slaying and preparing all the lambs. It is clear that they would not wait until sunset, at which time the evening meal would take place. The slaying of the lamb thus coincides exactly with the death of our Saviour, at the ninth hour of the day Mat 27:46.

                © Copyright Original Source



                His interpretation and conclusion is in agreement with common tradition.

                It is, as I have repeated, my understanding that Jesus and His disciple eat that Passover on the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:12-17, . . .). Jesus being crucified on the 15th of Nisan. Which cannot fall on even days of the week, not 2nd, 4th or 6th day of the week.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #53
                  No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!
                  Exodus 12:6
                  And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.


                  That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.
                  Mark 14:12
                  And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


                  And this is why I say that your position is incoherent. It sure seems like you keep changing it.

                  It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.
                  Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?
                    In post #47 http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ll=1#post49383 I said that the Passover Day was Wednesday. Next day was Thursday, the start of the Feast of Matzos, a High Sabbath. Friday was the day they buried Jesus. So Saturday is the answer; it is a weekly Sabbath. Note that it were Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who prepared Jesus' body in spices and linen cloths, according to John. I will have to study what the women who went to the tomb Sunday wanted to do exactly.
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      No, it was consumed before the morning of the 15th!
                      Exodus 12:6
                      And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
                      Source: "http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm" The Jewish Bible The Tanakh Exodus 12:6,


                      And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      An extra Bibical Jewish source, The Book of Jubilees,
                      ""Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the Passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun."
                      -- Source. About this source: The Jewish Encyclopedia, Jubilees, the book of.

                      "And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings." -- Exodus 12:6, John Darby Translation 1884-1890.




                      That is fine. But the first day of unleavened bread was Mark 14:12.
                      Mark 14:12
                      And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?


                      And this is why I say that your position is incoherent. It sure seems like you keep changing it.
                      I have not changed my view. You simply choose not to understand it, let alone agree with it. Your agreement is not needed. But if you understood it correctly, I would think you could better present your view. Which is fine by me. My interest is that the readers of this thread can understand why different views on the matter are held. Armed with the facts can make up their own minds.


                      It is my understanding, Jesus was placed in the tomb Thursday evening the 16th of Nisan. And the women had all that day (Friday) to prepare.
                      Then what sabbath were they concerned about, with regard to leaving his body up?
                      The weekly Sabbath that follows the day of Preparation. It is my view the women had all day to prepare the spices and ointments. (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:50-56) As I had explained Jesus being crucified on the 15th of Nisan, they had to wait till sundown to receive the body of Jesus.
                      Last edited by 37818; 05-05-2014, 10:07 PM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment

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