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Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover when?

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  • #31
    OK. The request made by Joseph of Arimathea must have been made in the few hours (maybe less than 9 hours) before the beginning of the Sabbath. Is that right, O Enumbered Avatar? The same day of the request must also be the day Jesus Christ died, as the Jews number the days.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #32
      Less than 3 hours before the sabbath

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        OK. The request made by Joseph of Arimathea must have been made in the few hours (maybe less than 9 hours) before the beginning of the Sabbath. Is that right, O Enumbered Avatar? The same day of the request must also be the day Jesus Christ died, as the Jews number the days.
        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
        Less than 3 hours before the sabbath
        ". . . And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " -- Luke 23:50-56.

        Based on the tradition that the day of the crucifixion was the day before the Sabbath, the women had less that a few hours to prepare the spices and ointments. [Not enough time to do it.]

        My understanding the body was take down the evening after sunset (Mark 15:42) the beginning of the day before the weekly sabbath. Where the women had all that day to prepare spices and ointments.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          ". . . And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. " -- Luke 23:50-56.

          Based on the tradition that the day of the crucifixion was the day before the Sabbath, the women had less that a few hours to prepare the spices and ointments. [Not enough time to do it.]

          My understanding the body was take down the evening after sunset (Mark 15:42) the beginning of the day before the weekly sabbath. Where the women had all that day to prepare spices and ointments.
          You're right! Jesus' body must have been taken sometime after the starting evening of the day before the Sabbath, possibly less than 5 hours after then. The Preparation Day was the day of burial, the Sabbath right after was the first day after the day of burial. Then Sunday was the second and final day after the day of burial [Mark 16:1]. Three days of burial. Easter.

          The 30 A.D. timeframe fits, but not the 33
          A.D. one (not enough time).
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            You're right! Jesus' body must have been taken sometime after the starting evening of the day before the Sabbath, possibly less than 5 hours after then. The Preparation Day was the day of burial, the Sabbath right after was the first day after the day of burial. Then Sunday was the second and final day after the day of burial [Mark 16:1]. Three days of burial. Easter.

            The 30 A.D. timeframe fits, but not the 33
            A.D. one (not enough time).
            Furthermore:
            ". . . and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." -- Luke 24;21. ". . . the third day since" was the first day of the week, our Sunday. The second day since was the Sabbath, our Saturday. And the first day since was the day of Preparation our Friday. Making the day our Thursday. Being placed in the tomb after sun set. We count night, day, night, day, night, the morning of the day. (Matthew 12:40.) Thursday evening to Sunday morning.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #36
              37818, your theory is pretty much incoherent. The Bible says that the preparation was for a high sabbath, not just a regular sabbath. Saturday in AD 30 was not a high sabbath. Thursday was.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                37818, your theory is pretty much incoherent. The Bible says that the preparation was for a high sabbath, not just a regular sabbath. Saturday in AD 30 was not a high sabbath. Thursday was.
                It is not incoherent, it is not mere theory, it is the history - which is not commonly acknowledged.

                There are few things that need to be shown.
                1) That Mark 13:12 in fact refers to Nisan 13th. (Typically the argument is driven by the conclusion!)
                2) That there is not a difference between the holy convocation where no service work is to be done and the Sabbath where no work is to be done.
                3) Show that the term "Sabbath" was used of the !5th of Nisan Biblically. (This being an argument for the Wednesday crucifixion view.)
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #38
                  Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfm

                  With all of that said, it must be noted that the day of the week is not something we know from Scripture. If God wanted us to know whether it was Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it would have been clearly stated.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                  [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                    Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/crux.cfm

                    With all of that said, it must be noted that the day of the week is not something we know from Scripture. If God wanted us to know whether it was Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, it would have been clearly stated.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Well that is simply not true. And bad exegesis.

                    ". . . it would have clearly stated." Such an argument negates essential truths. The trinity. No where does it say "God is a Trinity." The deity of Christ. No where does it say, "Jesus is God." The eternal Sonship of Christ. No where does it say "eternal Son."

                    The word of God is clear as to the day Christ died according to the Jewish calendar. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12 (see Exodus 12:6, 18). ". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve." -- Mark 14:17. So the following day Jesus was crucified. We have a day according to the Jewish calendar.

                    ". . . crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. " -- Luke 24:20, 21.

                    That day was a Sunday, being "the third day"
                    The second day was a Saturday, the Sabbath.
                    The first day "since" was Friday.

                    This eliminates Wednesday easily.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Buried Wednesday afternoon/night (Day 0); Thursday night (Day 1); (Friday night (Day 2); Saturday night (Day 3)

                      Saturday night the sabbath is over. Considered to be Sunday.

                      Originally posted by 37818
                      The word of God is clear as to the day Christ died according to the Jewish calendar. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12 (see Exodus 12:6, 18).
                      Exodus 12:6, 12:18
                      And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
                      . . . .
                      In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


                      The evening of the fourteenth was Tuesday night.

                      Bringing up the fact that it was "the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover" is a summary. It's like saying that in the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. It doesn't necessarily mean that God made the earth all on the first day. It's an introductory preview. Mark was saying that the evening was coming to kill the Passover and eat it, and the disciples asked him questions about that. Why in the world would they kill the Passover 24 hours before eating it? It wouldn't be as fresh.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        No, Obsidan, you are skipping partial days in counting the days; while the Bible, at least the NT, clearly does count the partial days, as the Enumerated Avatar showed.

                        BTW, I see I made a mistake a while ago, in a previous post. If the Enumerated Avatar is correct about the Jewish years, then the Jewish year 3793 is the year of the Crucifixion.
                        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          Buried Wednesday afternoon/night (Day 0); Thursday night (Day 1); (Friday night (Day 2); Saturday night (Day 3)

                          Saturday night the sabbath is over. Considered to be Sunday.



                          Exodus 12:6, 12:18
                          And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
                          . . . .
                          In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


                          The evening of the fourteenth was Tuesday night.

                          Bringing up the fact that it was "the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover" is a summary. It's like saying that in the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth. It doesn't necessarily mean that God made the earth all on the first day. It's an introductory preview. Mark was saying that the evening was coming to kill the Passover and eat it, and the disciples asked him questions about that. Why in the world would they kill the Passover 24 hours before eating it? It wouldn't be as fresh.
                          The unleavened bread is to begin the evening prior to the day. The evening following 14th the Passover is eaten the evening of the 15th. Just as orthodox Jews do it today.

                          Yes, the 14th of Nisan began Tuesday evening in 30 AD, Jewish calendar year 3790.

                          "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" -- Mark 14:12.

                          That day was then the 14th of Nisan. Wednesday 30 AD.

                          ". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . ." -- Mark 14:17. That was that very following Wednesday evening.


                          Now back to the day of the first day of the week,
                          ". . . have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." -- Luke 24:20, 21.

                          Wednesday Mark 14:12, ". . . Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"
                          Wednesday, evening they eat the Passover meal.
                          Thursday ". . . have crucified him."
                          Friday, first day after.
                          Saturday, Sabbath, second day after.
                          Sunday third day after.

                          __________________________________________________ ____________

                          Provide proof that ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." was on the 13th of Nisan. Both the Wednesday and the traditional view must contend this.
                          Last edited by 37818; 04-26-2014, 08:33 PM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            You are taking the uninspired statement of these people so rigidly that it undermines the inspired statements elsewhere. Anyway, if we assume that they were counting from the burial (right around the start of Thursday) and then running until the time when the body went missing ("very early in the morning" on the "first day"), that makes three days.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                              I don't defend 100 percent innerrency I do defend accuracy. The account of Scripture is accurate. So, Tuesday at sundown or Wednesday at sundown, Jesus arose from the grave. I'm happy. the end.
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              You are taking the uninspired statement of these people so rigidly that it undermines the inspired statements elsewhere. Anyway, if we assume that they were counting from the burial (right around the start of Thursday) and then running until the time when the body went missing ("very early in the morning" on the "first day"), that makes three days.
                              The view I came to is based on, what I could derive from Holy Scripture. And the Jewish reckoning of their days beginning at sunset, the evening. (ref Mark 14:12, 17 & Mark 15:42. The rest, the Jewish calendar 3790, Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21, John 12:1-12, agreed with it.) (Again interpretation on this are of secondary import).
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                John 19:31
                                The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


                                The worry seems to have been that the sabbath was about to begin. The sabbath refers to the 15th.

                                As best I can tell, on the 14th they were supposed to eat one lamb. On the other days they were supposed to kill 7 animals for each day.
                                Here is a key to solving the puzzle. For argument's sake, forget the calendar dates. The Jews wanted Jesus to die and his body taken down before the beginning of the First Day of the Unleavened Bread. That is a High Sabbath. Not necessarily also a weekly Sabbath (though I think in this case it does happen to be a weekly Sabbath also, as I hope to show later). We have to surmise that, because of the haste that the Jews were shown to act in, Jesus did die on the day just before the First Day of Matzo, i.e., the Passover Day. Jesus didn't actually eat the Passover meal! He was dead then. Sure, there are some verses that seems to show that Jesus expected to eat that; let me deal with them later, please. After all, he is supposed to be the sacrifical Lamb; what more appropriate day for his death than a Passover Day?

                                I pause here to see if there is any dissent.
                                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                                Comment

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