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Did Moses pass for an Egyptian?

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  • Did Moses pass for an Egyptian?

    So, I've been having a discussion on a YouTube page with some Black Israelites about Moses. Some interesting discussion has come up and I'd like my fellow Christians' response on it:

    So the argument being made by them is that the Egyptians (Mizraim) were black because they are descendants of Ham, and Moses was mistaken for an Egyptian in Exodus 2:19 so Moses was black, and therefore Israelites were black too. Since a biblical theory is that Ham gave rise to the black nations, and Mizraim is one of Ham's sons, how do we go about evaluating the text to discover that the Egyptians were more closely related to Semitic people like DNA evidence proves, than to sub-Saharan Africans like these racists think?
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    So, I've been having a discussion on a YouTube page with some Black Israelites about Moses. Some interesting discussion has come up and I'd like my fellow Christians' response on it:

    So the argument being made by them is that the Egyptians (Mizraim) were black because they are descendants of Ham, and Moses was mistaken for an Egyptian in Exodus 2:19 so Moses was black, and therefore Israelites were black too. Since a biblical theory is that Ham gave rise to the black nations, and Mizraim is one of Ham's sons, how do we go about evaluating the text to discover that the Egyptians were more closely related to Semitic people like DNA evidence proves, than to sub-Saharan Africans like these racists think?
    There isn't a whole lot that can be pointed to. Lamentations 4:7-8 is barely possible, Jeremiah 13:23 might indicate that the skin of Israelites was not the same colour as that of Ethiopians, but that is about it. The ancients just weren't that interested in peoples' colours. Such racism as existed was based on entirely different rationales.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Black Hebrew Israelites are nothing if not inventive. They're also rather impervious to adverse facts. It should be fairly simple to point out that the Israelites were descendants of Shem; that Moses was taken to be an Egyptian is rather an indication that neither Moses nor the Egyptians were particularly dark-skinned. The confusion most likely arose because Moses dressed and styled his hair as an Egyptian prince would.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Black Hebrew Israelites are nothing if not inventive. They're also rather impervious to adverse facts. It should be fairly simple to point out that the Israelites were descendants of Shem; that Moses was taken to be an Egyptian is rather an indication that neither Moses nor the Egyptians were particularly dark-skinned. The confusion most likely arose because Moses dressed and styled his hair as an Egyptian prince would.
        That's part of their argument, OB1. That Egypt is a descendant of Ham and Ham was black and the father of the black nations. That's what I'm trying to work through with this guy.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Ancient Egyptians weren't black. Look at how they depicted themselves in their art:

          egypt.JPG
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Ancient Egyptians weren't black. Look at how they depicted themselves in their art:

            egypt.JPG
            There is another image that was found in the Tomb of Seti I that depicts (from left to right) a Libyan, a Nubian, an Asiatic, and an Egyptian.




            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

              There is another image that was found in the Tomb of Seti I that depicts (from left to right) a Libyan, a Nubian, an Asiatic, and an Egyptian.



              So the Egyptian is brown, and has that typical hair-do that white people aren't allowed to have. Obviously, he's black.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                So the Egyptian is brown, and has that typical hair-do that white people aren't allowed to have. Obviously, he's black.
                Coins depict the Macedonian Cleopatra with corn rows.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Coins depict the Macedonian Cleopatra with corn rows.
                  She's black too. And Captain Cook (but not Captain Bligh - because he was an evil sonofa, so he must have been white), and Queen Victoria.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You can look at Egyptians today. Most are more Arabic/Semitic looking than black. I am sure they had a mixture of races in the area too as Egypt was a center for trading.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      She's black too. And Captain Cook (but not Captain Bligh - because he was an evil sonofa, so he must have been white), and Queen Victoria.
                      Bligh was one of the most accomplished ship captains of his day.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                        That's part of their argument, OB1. That Egypt is a descendant of Ham and Ham was black and the father of the black nations. That's what I'm trying to work through with this guy.
                        Yeah, I know that's part of their argument - but Moses is a descendant of Shem. That is abundantly clear - Gen. 10:21, Gen. 11, 1 Chr. 1 (and Luke 3).
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Ancient Egyptians weren't black. Look at how they depicted themselves in their art:

                          egypt.JPG
                          Oh, I know. I went to the Louvre in Paris and spent a considerable amount of time in the ancient Egypt section. Sarcophagi from 5-6000 years ago had depictions just like that one with a few that only depicted very black men as slaves doing labors.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Kushites (or Nubians) were a vassal state of Egypt for a long time, then they revolted and basically conquered Egypt in the 8th century BC. They were black and the first black Pharaoh of Egypt was King Piye. They lasted for about 100 years.
                            https://greekreporter.com/2023/09/02...ancient-egypt/
                            If Egyptians were black also, it seem strange that historians make such a big deal about the 25th dynasty, when the Kushites ruled as the "black pharaohs"


                            Moses lived in the 13-14th century BC, so way earlier than that.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm kind of surprised that the larger more important issue hasn't come up yet. The real unresolved question here is whether or not Moses could.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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