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The tide has really turned against complementarianism

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  • The tide has really turned against complementarianism

    This might be more Civics, but I didn't want to start it there...

    I saw a political ad on TV the other night that didn't sit easy with me. It was for the state Republican governor primary.

    This was an attack ad on the frontrunner. It pulled out some quotes from him speaking in church about how God wants men as leaders, apparently in a church context. The subtext of the ad was "how sexist".

    I'm not really interested in rehashing the egalitarian/complementarian debate; I slightly lean egalitarian. But it was striking that at this point in time, even the complementarian perspective is a political liability even among conservatives (and the guy who ran this ad is going out of his way to portray himself as a conservative).

    (I don't want to defend the guy being attacked in the ad. His church has been accused of being a cult, and he went on a Facebook rant suggesting that the Holocaust was made up to support gun control, and it bothers me that he's still going to win the nomination. But that's not my point here. It may be, however, that the subtext of this ad is more to subtly attack his specific church.)

    edit: tabibito has permission to post in this thread.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 02-14-2024, 10:14 AM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This might be more Civics, but I didn't want to start it there...

    I saw a political ad on TV the other night that didn't sit easy with me. It was for the state Republican governor primary.

    This was an attack ad on the frontrunner. It pulled out some quotes from him speaking in church about how God wants men as leaders, apparently in a church context. The subtext of the ad was "how sexist".

    I'm not really interested in rehashing the egalitarian/complementarian debate; I slightly lean egalitarian. But it was striking that at this point in time, even the complementarian perspective is a political liability even among conservatives (and the guy who ran this ad is going out of his way to portray himself as a conservative).

    (I don't want to defend the guy being attacked in the ad. His church has been accused of being a cult, and he went on a Facebook rant suggesting that the Holocaust was made up to support gun control, and it bothers me that he's still going to win the nomination. But that's not my point here. It may be, however, that the subtext of this ad is more to subtly attack his specific church.)
    Wait... what?

    The Holocaust is used to SUPPORT gun control?!? That has to be a first. Every time I see the two things linked it is to say that Holocausts can happen where there IS gun control.





    Sorry for the derail, but that just seems so stark in contrast to what is typically argued.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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    • #3
      I found a short excerpt of the sermon that the ad is about:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGYIGqf6aPk
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Wait... what?

        The Holocaust is used to SUPPORT gun control?!? That has to be a first. Every time I see the two things linked it is to say that Holocausts can happen where there IS gun control.





        Sorry for the derail, but that just seems so stark in contrast to what is typically argued.
        That was my takeaway, though I'm looking at it again and it's rambling enough that he might have been going in another direction, but on face value, that's what it looks like he's saying. Here's what he said: https://jewishinsider.com/2023/07/ma...ial-holocaust/
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

          That was my takeaway, though I'm looking at it again and it's rambling enough that he might have been going in another direction, but on face value, that's what it looks like he's saying. Here's what he said: https://jewishinsider.com/2023/07/ma...ial-holocaust/
          Not so much. He was following the usual line on that one - disarm people, and then march them off to concentration camps. Also, the short examples in the article have him pointing out that the Nazis were rank amateurs compared with the Communists of Russia, where death tolls were much higher. Even so, he comes across as a loose cannon, and there might be more damning comments in other records of his speeches.

          Amusing that he called to the Old Testament for examples of how it demonstrates that women should not be leaders.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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          • #6
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Not so much. He was following the usual line on that one - disarm people, and then march them off to concentration camps. Also, the short examples in the article have him pointing out that the Nazis were rank amateurs compared with the Communists of Russia, where death tolls were much higher. Even so, he comes across as a loose cannon, and there might be more damning comments in other records of his speeches.

            Amusing that he called to the Old Testament for examples of how it demonstrates that women should not be leaders.
            That makes sense enough with the greater context of it being apparently a well known trope. His rambling style of typing is not easy to follow.

            Also, I gave you permission to post in this thread retroactively.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                That makes sense enough with the greater context of it being apparently a well known trope. His rambling style of typing is not easy to follow.

                Also, I gave you permission to post in this thread retroactively.
                Oops. apologies
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  This might be more Civics, but I didn't want to start it there...

                  I saw a political ad on TV the other night that didn't sit easy with me. It was for the state Republican governor primary.

                  This was an attack ad on the frontrunner. It pulled out some quotes from him speaking in church about how God wants men as leaders, apparently in a church context. The subtext of the ad was "how sexist".

                  I'm not really interested in rehashing the egalitarian/complementarian debate; I slightly lean egalitarian. But it was striking that at this point in time, even the complementarian perspective is a political liability even among conservatives (and the guy who ran this ad is going out of his way to portray himself as a conservative).

                  (I don't want to defend the guy being attacked in the ad. His church has been accused of being a cult, and he went on a Facebook rant suggesting that the Holocaust was made up to support gun control, and it bothers me that he's still going to win the nomination. But that's not my point here. It may be, however, that the subtext of this ad is more to subtly attack his specific church.)

                  edit: tabibito has permission to post in this thread.
                  Yeah, I can't say that I'm surprised that even a whiff of Complementarianism is considered a Red Flag by modern Conservatives. It feels like there's been a cultural descent- even in the church- towards demonizing anyone that tries to say there's differences between Men and Women. Like, I distinctly remember a group project in 5th Grade Social Studies where we had to list off the different/unique things men and women can do. Obviously, women having Babies was the only thing singled out because a bunch of kids wouldn't know enough about the Birds and the Bees to also point out that Men are the only ones who can get a woman pregnant. Of course, this was over 20 Years ago, can you imagine the uproar if someone tried to distinguish between men and women these days?

                  I'm not a fan of Complementarianism, especially because it's frequently seen as Carte Blanche to be a Wife-Beating Dictator (even though many who argue for Complementarianism would rightfully call that out as being a Failure of a Leader who needs to be held accountable), but I also think this True Egalitarianism is very much a pipe dream that people need to stop chasing.
                  Have You Touched Grass Today? If Not, Please Do.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A few things...

                    His style is intentionally provocative. Not necessarily a bad thing, as it grabs attention and stimulates thought.

                    He does not seem (from the clip) to be limiting himself to "church" leadership. He seems to be speaking pretty broadly. As such, he would be in line with the vintage J-Mac meme from 1976 attached below.

                    Jason Whitlock is among the people I "follow" on Facebook. He also has a "leadership is male" perspective, and does not shy away from embracing the term "patriarchy" rather than "complementarian. I get the impression that he is at least in part motivated by the harm done to Black Culture by dysfunctional male role models. I wonder if there is something similar going on with this candidate.

                    While I am pretty thoroughly both conservative and egalitarian, many of the people I follow on Facebook are conservatives who are complementarian (but I doubt they are even aware of that terminology). Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, Mike Knowles -- All are "traditional," which is basically "complementarian."

                    Especially in this age of "identifying" and "transitioning" and "pronouns," it is easy to get lost in the weeds. I have to keep reminding myself that whatever the differences between the sexes, they do not include a hierarchy of authority of one over the other. That is the main focal issue.

                    On the Subject, I'm not certain, at least within the Church. The debate is still pretty active, IMO. Prolific YouTuber Mike Winger recently completed a year-long multi-part (and multi-multi-hour) series of videos on the subject. He supports complementarianism. The boys over at Remnant Radio also at least lean that way. (I believe I once heard Rowntree say that he at least comes close to considering egalitarianism to be a "doctrine of demons," but I haven't been able to track down that quote subsequently.)

                    ----------------------------

                    The vintage J-Mac meme:


                    j-mac_76.jpg
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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