Originally posted by JohnnyP
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Peter Enns and Marcionism
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Originally posted by Glenn P View Post
I think he's right that there is a very strong discontinuity here. Can anyone really think that God calls the church to invade the land of other nations and take its booty?
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Originally posted by Glenn P View PostYes, but the fire came down from the sky, not out of anyone's mouth.
2 Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
1 Kings 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Without getting too much into eschatology and back to the point, the NT isn't all "make love not war" at any rate.
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"I wouldn't read it like a dragon breathing fire"
Trouble is, here's what it says: "fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies"
So the fire proceeded from their mouths. So it's really not something that we should look at as literally true at all.
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Originally posted by Glenn P View PostTrouble is, here's what it says: "fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies"
So the fire proceeded from their mouths. So it's really not something that we should look at as literally true at all.
Whatever it is, it kills enemies, so it is an example that the NT may not always call for non-violence.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostI might see a non-literal reading, like fire is symbolic of effective preaching or something, if it didn't say the fire kills. Since it does, and due to parallels with Elijah, I read it as fire comes from their mouths by way of command to call it from Heaven.
Whatever it is, it kills enemies, so it is an example that the NT may not always call for non-violence.
In any event, none of this supports the allegation that Peter Enns is a Marcionite. he very clearly is not, and the suggestion that he is one is ridiculous.
I'm not about to follow the side-track of nonviolence.
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At the very least, I think it can be said that arguing for radical discontinuity between the testaments is a road that consistently followed, may lead right to Marcionism."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Glenn P View PostIf the fire is symbolic of preaching, then surely the real-world result is not killing at all (unless preaching generally kills people), so this wouldn't be an example of violence.
Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Originally posted by Glenn P View PostIn any event, none of this supports the allegation that Peter Enns is a Marcionite. he very clearly is not, and the suggestion that he is one is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Glenn P View PostI'm not about to follow the side-track of nonviolence.
Originally posted by Glenn P View PostThere's a perceived conflict that many people identify: The conflict between a loving God who wants peace, and the actions of Yahweh in the Old Testament in the conquest narratives...I think he's right that there is a very strong discontinuity here.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIn general, it seems to me that Marcionite ideas have been popping up more and more lately among some Christian crowds - some Christian professors have become simply dismissive of the standard apologetic defenses of violence in the OT.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostWhat are the standard defenses?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostGenerally, either that the commands are somewhat hyperbolic in nature, or indepth explanations of just what the people did to earn their conquest (i.e. practicing human sacrifice and the like). Personally, I think these explanations are sufficient (especially the second of the two).
What I don't quite know is whether the Levant was more wicked than other places or whether God was just needing to prepare a small area for a holy people.
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Then after the Messiah came, all further cleanup would be worked out through the power of the Messiah and His influence such that the Christians would not end up being called to the OT style purification of the land (though a purification done through shedding of blood, as was the reason David could not build the temple).
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Has anybody else been reading the new Five Views on Inerrancy? Enns appears in it, and does get accused of Marcionism by some of the other participants."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Bumping in light of discussion in another thread."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostBumping in light of discussion in another thread.
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