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orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    I grew up on the KJV, the language is almost poetic and is beautiful. I still to this day quote scriptures I memorized from it. But, the language is also very outdated. The meaning of so many words have changed so that if you are not VERY careful, you see KJV scripture saying things that are not true. Let's take just one example:




    What does "Peculiar" mean in todays language? Just about everyone would say it means queer, strange or odd. But in the English of the time, Peculiar meant: Distinct, called, or specially appointed, exclusively a part of (a group). There are so many instances of the language drift problem in the KJV, that IMHO, it's at least a problem.

    ^Yeah, that.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
      Thanks for the recommendations everyone. I am still strongly considering the NET bible for reasons cited by Paprika. I like the NASB, however, when was the last time it was updated/revised? I shy away from the ESV because I am concerned about sectarian bias, however, is this of my own imagining? The ESV also seems to be a favorite of the New Calvinists and Piper cubs, and I like to be just a bit different.
      If different is what you're looking for, having you considered the New World Translation?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        If different is what you're looking for, having you considered the New World Translation?
        Or the Geneva Bible. Not many people use that.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
          Not your fault; that's what I had read online sometime ago. According to an earlier post, RBerman had the same information as you and I did. However, TNIV is definitely out of print, and the new/current NIV has both a different translation team and a different text.
          I was speaking casually. NIV 1984 was revised into TNIV, but the two were still being sold in parallel, and TNIV got a drubbing from evangelicals due to some pretty miserable translation mistakes made in an effort to promote gender-inclusive language. Zondervan brought more evangelicals on board, reworked the most egregious errors in TNIV, stopped publishing both NIV 1984 and TNIV, and starting publishing the reworked TNIV as "NIV" 2011. I read an analysis of all the changes which indicated that, of all the changes made between NIV 1984 and TNIV, the overwhelming majority were retained in NIV 2011. Comparing the smaller number of changes between TNIV and NIV 2011, a few reverted back to the NIV 1984 reading, while most were changed to a novel reading.
          Last edited by RBerman; 03-24-2014, 04:07 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            If different is what you're looking for, having you considered the New World Translation?
            My favorite different translation is the Wyclif Bible.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              I think the KJV is like a better version of the NASB. Why does no one like it? It doesn't have any of the flaws discussed in this thread. It doesn't have any feminism. It doesn't change the word "seed" to "descendants" in Genesis 17:7. It doesn't say that whoever "disobeys" Jesus will burn in hell in John 3:36. It doesn't support the concept of a monastic "pledge" in 1 Timothy 5:12. And I think it is less clunky and prettier than the NASB. Whenever you quote from it, people generally respect it. It barely costs anything to buy one. You know that it will probably be around for a while (unlike my last Bible, the 1984 NIV). People dislike the "thee" and "thou" parts, but at least you can use those words to tell when the Greek word is singular rather than plural.
              Unfortunately, the English language has slipped away from KJV, so that its vocabulary and grammar connote a much higher degree of archaism than was intended by the original texts, even to those who can parse its sometimes antiquated phraseology. However, I am curious which edition of KJV you are reading: The original 1611, or one of the several revisions?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                Unfortunately, the English language has slipped away from KJV, so that its vocabulary and grammar connote a much higher degree of archaism than was intended by the original texts, even to those who can parse its sometimes antiquated phraseology. However, I am curious which edition of KJV you are reading: The original 1611, or one of the several revisions?
                Agreed. Sometimes the archaism of the KJV English is underestimated.

                A peculiar favorite of mine, 2 Corinthians 6:11-12:

                O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
                Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                • #38
                  I'm far from a scholar, and can't speak to its accuracy (or possible lack), but regarding unusual translations there's also this.

                  ETA: This was recommended to me by an old friend of the family, so I bought one a while ago on a whim. I haven't studied it in-depth, however. As a side-note, it is way huger than it looks in the pictures.
                  Last edited by Zymologist; 03-24-2014, 04:31 PM.
                  I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                  • #39
                    John Reece, is you're still reading, a curiosity question: Which of the current English translations of the Septuagint would you recommend?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Just Some Dude View Post
                      John Reece, is you're still reading, a curiosity question: Which of the current English translations of the Septuagint would you recommend?
                      I'd be interested in John's reply, too.

                      I spoke on Ps 104 a few weeks ago. Verse 8 is somewhat ambiguous in the Hebrew MTT; did the mountains go up and the valleys go down, or did the waters go up the mountains and down the valleys? I opted for the latter, which is the NIV and LXX rendering, because it seems to fit the context better (the poetic imagery views the waters as an enemy army which flees at God's shout). I noticed that Brenton's LXX translation matched the Greek LXX here (where "mountains" and "valleys" are in the accusative, not the nominative), but the NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint) did not. NETS had the mountains and valleys moving, not the waters. Unless there are multiple readings of the LXX on this verse, the NETS got the translation of this verse very wrong!
                      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I prefer the NKJV, though I wish the editors had gone with the Majority Text rather than the TR. I also like the NET, though I tend to prefer the alternate translations in the footnotes (which tend to be more formally equivalent).
                        I also like the NET. The text itself is somewhat loosely translated, but the notes are extremely good and helpful.
                        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                          I'd be interested in John's reply, too.

                          I spoke on Ps 104 a few weeks ago. Verse 8 is somewhat ambiguous in the Hebrew MTT; did the mountains go up and the valleys go down, or did the waters go up the mountains and down the valleys? I opted for the latter, which is the NIV and LXX rendering, because it seems to fit the context better (the poetic imagery views the waters as an enemy army which flees at God's shout). I noticed that Brenton's LXX translation matched the Greek LXX here (where "mountains" and "valleys" are in the accusative, not the nominative), but the NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint) did not. NETS had the mountains and valleys moving, not the waters. Unless there are multiple readings of the LXX on this verse, the NETS got the translation of this verse very wrong!
                          The Orthodox Study Bible has for verse 8: "The mountains rise up, and the plains sink down to the place You founded for them." The waters move in verses 7, 9, and 10, however. I like its rendering in some places, but in others it becomes nearly incomprehensible.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RBerman
                            However, I am curious which edition of KJV you are reading: The original 1611, or one of the several revisions?
                            usually just the one that says "King James Version" on biblegateway.com

                            Originally posted by Zymologist
                            O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
                            Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
                            It may be hard to understand, but I'm guessing that's pretty much what the original language says.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                              If different is what you're looking for, having you considered the New World Translation?
                              LOL! My, my you've got quite the mean streak in you RB, don't you?

                              I've decided to go with the NASB, thanks for everyone's input.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                The Orthodox Study Bible has for verse 8: "The mountains rise up, and the plains sink down to the place You founded for them." The waters move in verses 7, 9, and 10, however. I like its rendering in some places, but in others it becomes nearly incomprehensible.
                                Yes, most English versions render it this way (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NET, ...). As I said, the Hebrew is ambiguous. The NIV, LXX, and Young's Literal render it that the waters went up the mountains and down the valleys. Mitchell Dahood argues for this rendering in his commentary on the Psalms, and I find his arguments persuasive.

                                But the question was on which English translation of the Septuagint (LXX) was the best. I would argue that the best one is the one which most accurately renders the wording and grammar of the LXX, especially where the LXX differs from other translations. On this score, for Ps 104:8, Brenton passes and NETS fails.
                                Last edited by Kbertsche; 03-24-2014, 11:41 PM.
                                "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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