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SBC booted Saddleback over female pastors

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  • SBC booted Saddleback over female pastors

    "Not the Bee" article.

    I don't know enough about Saddleback to have any feelings or opinions about them in general. I'm definitely on their side on this particular issue, and the fact that Denny Burk takes the SBC side tends to confirm that stance. I'm probably not in favor of "blacks-only services," online or otherwise, but I haven't actually read that particular article.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

  • #2
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    "Not the Bee" article.

    I don't know enough about Saddleback to have any feelings or opinions about them in general. I'm definitely on their side on this particular issue, and the fact that Denny Burk takes the SBC side tends to confirm that stance. I'm probably not in favor of "blacks-only services," online or otherwise, but I haven't actually read that particular article.
    It isn't "blacks only" but "blacks and spouses (regardless of nationality)," which might in some circumstances be a legitimate move provided that it is only occasional. The rationale though, according to Rigby Harris (Not the Bee) is to provide "safe spaces." As Harris points out - if the church itself is not a safe space, there's something very wrong.
    Last edited by tabibito; 02-22-2023, 12:03 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #3
      I've seen several churches do the wife of the pastor is a pastor movement. I'm not sure that pastor's wife is a Biblical office for the church.

      Not really sure what to make of women as pastors. I guess I lean towards no. Certainly, the women pastors I've encountered in my life have been underwhelming.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        The Dover Baptists have the same restrictions. My church is part of that. I agree with them.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          I've seen several churches do the wife of the pastor is a pastor movement. I'm not sure that pastor's wife is a Biblical office for the church.

          Not really sure what to make of women as pastors. I guess I lean towards no. Certainly, the women pastors I've encountered in my life have been underwhelming.
          That's an interesting observation.

          I know three female pastors -- ELCA, Presby, and Vineyard.

          The ELCA lady does a fine job with funerals. I don't know anything else about her "professional" abilities.

          The Presby is my cousin's girlfriend, so I know her better as a friend than as a pastor. She does a great job with weddings and funerals.

          The Vineyard lady is a high school classmate, and was one of the top ten in my class of '78. Her dad was a C&MA pastor. Of the three, I suspect her theology is most like mine, but I have no experience with her preaching, teaching, or officiating.

          I quite enjoy listening to Lucy Peppiat, Cynthia Long Westfall, and especially Cherith Fee Nordling (daughter of the late Gordon Fee) do sermons, lectures, and interviews; but that's not the same as serving as pastor.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            Certainly, the women pastors I've encountered in my life have been underwhelming.
            Precious few male pastors are any different.

            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Precious few male pastors are any different.
              Interesting. I'd say that more or less tracks with my experience, though both of my college fellowship pastors were pretty good.

              On the other hand, having been Orthodox now for approaching 15 years, and having visited a number of parishes, I've only had a single experience with an Orthodox priest that wasn't decidedly positive (and that was a very brief encounter in Jerusalem). I hadn't thought to do a comparison before now.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Precious few male pastors are any different.
                Agreed. I've met more men in the pulpit that after I get to know them, I think have no business being a pastor than I've met that I think should be a pastor. I think the later count is about two.

                The pastors I think the most of were all male.
                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                  Agreed. I've met more men in the pulpit that after I get to know them, I think have no business being a pastor than I've met that I think should be a pastor. I think the later count is about two.

                  The pastors I think the most of were all male.
                  The male pastors I know are likable guys of good character.

                  One is ELCA. He was one of my college roommates, and back then was a riot. Kind of a jolly, John Candy / Curly Howard character, and arguably of better character than I.

                  The other is Calvary Chapel educated, and a musician. (Used to play with Apologetix.)

                  I'm a bit jaded by listening to preachers like Gordon Fee, Ben Witherington, and Tom Wright, so it's hard to fairly evaluate "regular" preachers.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                    The male pastors I know are likable guys of good character.

                    One is ELCA. He was one of my college roommates, and back then was a riot. Kind of a jolly, John Candy / Curly Howard character, and arguably of better character than I.

                    The other is Calvary Chapel educated, and a musician. (Used to play with Apologetix.)

                    I'm a bit jaded by listening to preachers like Gordon Fee, Ben Witherington, and Tom Wright, so it's hard to fairly evaluate "regular" preachers.
                    I suppose getting jaded is a consequence of our modern media environment where you can get whoever you want when you want to listen to them.

                    Two things come to mind. We should respect our local pastor because our relationship with him is personal. Would any of the preachers you mention know us by name and have coffee with us?

                    Of course, there is no reason we can't nudge our pastors to do a little better. Also, I've had some local pastors that were good preachers. A good preacher won't necessarily have a national ministry.

                    (And you can go to the Pop Preachers and their heretical beliefs thread to get a list of national preachers who shouldn't have a national ministry.)
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      On her Facebook page, Marg Mowczko reposted this article from May 2021 in response to the news: There are Women Pastors in the New Testament.

                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What a shame - though this does not surprise me at all.

                        What does surprise me, however, is that many find it healthy to only hear the voice of a father in church, and not a father and a mother. God gave us both sexes for a reason, and we should celebrate the differences we bring to the church.

                        In our church, we ordain female pastors under the covering of male leadership and the fruit has been outstanding. In fact, today we heard from the wife of our head pastor (who is also a pastor), and I am always blown away by her wisdom and ability to minister from the pulpit.

                        Thank God that He is able to use both male and female in the proclamation of His gospel, the equipping of saints and the building of His kingdom.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                          I suppose getting jaded is a consequence of our modern media environment where you can get whoever you want when you want to listen to them.

                          Two things come to mind. We should respect our local pastor because our relationship with him is personal. Would any of the preachers you mention know us by name and have coffee with us?

                          Of course, there is no reason we can't nudge our pastors to do a little better. Also, I've had some local pastors that were good preachers. A good preacher won't necessarily have a national ministry.

                          (And you can go to the Pop Preachers and their heretical beliefs thread to get a list of national preachers who shouldn't have a national ministry.)
                          I agree that there are plenty of nutters there, and it's a shame they're so popular. My best friend is a great fan of Andrew Wommack. She likes him even more than I liked Dad Hagin back in the mid-to-late '80s. It frustrates her a bit that I just won't "see the light."

                          But honestly, some of the "heresies" they're accused of -- aren't. Rob Bowman showed that over 20 years ago with his book, The Word-Faith Controversy. Some of this has been addressed in the threads talking about "kenotic" Christologies.

                          And frankly, some of the Big Names on the other side are not much better. J-Mac with his "Go home!" Recently Owen Strachan with his stupid little freestyle rap about women in ministry. Clowns like that should not be taken seriously.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            On her Facebook page, Marg Mowczko reposted this article from May 2021 in response to the news: There are Women Pastors in the New Testament.
                            Hers is a good overview - she found some points that I hadn't. The only weakness, and it is not directly related to women in roles of leadership, is the claim that leaders are not in positions of authority over their congregations. If nothing else, the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation) should be enough to prompt a re-evaluation.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Hers is a good overview - she found some points that I hadn't. The only weakness, and it is not directly related to women in roles of leadership, is the claim that leaders are not in positions of authority over their congregations. If nothing else, the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation) should be enough to prompt a re-evaluation.
                              I've gently pushed back against that in a few interactions with her and those who comment on her blog and Facebook postings. I appreciate her point. Some groups are way too focused on authority and hierarchy. Back in the '80s, I attended a church where, in training sessions, those in "helps" ministries (ushers, greeters, deacons, etc.) were sometimes referred to as "armor-bearers," or likened to Aaron and Hur holding up Moses's arms, with the pastor being the king or Moses. We got training materials from Bob Yandian and Mark Barclay and Bob Lemon (under-shepherd to Dad Hagin's son-in-law Buddy Harrison).

                              They seem to interpret "servant leadership" and Matt. 25:21, 23 as meaning that one "serves" primarily for the purpose of climbing the ladder to become a "master."

                              I think many on the egalitarian (Marg prefers the more precise "non-hierchical complementarian") side believe local shepherds should emulate what the Good Shepherd said in Matt. 20:28.

                              I'm sympathetic to the latter view, but it doesn't make sense to say that leaders will "give account" for "watching over [the] souls" under their oversight (Heb. 13:17) if they don't have authority to match that kind of responsibility. It makes no sense to claim that, as householder-pastor, Nympha was legally "responsible" for gatherings in her home if she did not have authority to back up that responsibility. As a patron, Phoebe would have had *some* level of authority over those she assisted, in cases where her patronage was operative.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment

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