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Complementarian/Mutualist Dialogue -- Denny Burke, Ron Pierce

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  • Complementarian/Mutualist Dialogue -- Denny Burke, Ron Pierce

    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

  • #2
    This is a nice, civilized exchange, but I do find Denny's smirk annoying.

    Denny's bit about the Fall being built around an actual reversal of the Created Order was clever, but ultimately not probative. It depends on the *presupposition* of male leadership, which is not evident in the text itself.

    For the affirmative case for mutualism, I would not have done as Ron did, going so quickly to addressing to the clobber-texts used to refute women in leadership ministries. I would have gone to --

    -- Acts 2, esp. vv. 17-18, reading it in the context of Acts 1, Luke 24, Luke 4, Luke 9:2, and Luke 10:1, all by the same author

    -- Gal. 3:28, in the context of the age of the Spirit replacing the Age of the Law.

    -- Rom. 16:1-2 (with Phoebe as deacon and patron/leader) and 7 (with Junia as a notable apostle)

    -- Col. 4:15, with Nympha overseeing a house church.


    Ron appears to have been incorrect in saying Adam did not "name" his wife until after the Fall. The same word, "qara," is used in both Gen. 2:23 and 3:20.


    The exchanges regarding "primogeniture" were good from both parties. I wonder if it would have been worth Ron mentioning that neither Adam nor Eve were "born," and whether that would have influenced the way ancient readers who practiced primogeniture understood Gen. 1 and 2.


    Ron could have done a bit better in pushing back against Denny's view of "ezer" ("help") in Gen. 2, but probably not much given the time constraints.

    Ron didn't point out, and few on the mutualist side ever do, that the complementarian use of the Adam and Eve reference in 1 Tim. 2 often amounts to circular reasoning.

    Denny made a good point in noting that it's not really possible to do as some wish to do, and accept women in all "levels" of ministry, but maintain that the man is leader of the household, especially in a culture that generally had house-churches; but even then, he probably sees more "authority" in the role of pastor than do many egalitarians.

    Denny is *really* hung up on the "authority" thing. He sees a form of "authority" in the "didask-" word group as used by Paul, and for him, that alone seems to exclude women. I think most egalitarians would view the authority as being primarily in the teaching itself, not in the person doing the teaching.

    It's fairly common to associate the instructions in 1 Tim. 2 with women influenced by Artemis worship. Ron makes a good point in linking 1 Tim. 1:3 with Acts 19:26 and onward. That's a more direct, tangible, textual connection than is usually made, and gives a little more support for bringing in what is generally believed about Asian Artemis worship.

    It appears that Ron is like me in that he was a complementarian for some time, but 1 Tim. 2 was a major factor in "converting" to egalitarian.



    I find this topic endlessly fascinating and endlessly frustrating. There doesn't seem to be a way around the fact that the two sides just "see" Scripture differently.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      This is a nice, civilized exchange, but I do find Denny's smirk annoying.

      I find this topic endlessly fascinating and endlessly frustrating. There doesn't seem to be a way around the fact that the two sides just "see" Scripture differently.
      What you say shows that Scripture is less clear than we would like. While I think there are the general principals of faithfulness and love for each other, how that works out is best left to the participants. What really works for one couple would probably make other couples endlessly miserable.

      I don't think you'll find a way around two sides seeing Scripture differently.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

        What you say shows that Scripture is less clear than we would like. While I think there are the general principals of faithfulness and love for each other, how that works out is best left to the participants. What really works for one couple would probably make other couples endlessly miserable.

        I don't think you'll find a way around two sides seeing Scripture differently.
        It's kind of interesting that some of us *do* convert... or transition... or whatever. Some rather well-known egalitarians or mutualists spent years or decades as complementarians -- Ron Pierce (in the video), P.B. Payne, and Marg Mowczko, to name three.

        I found that video via a discussion in the Comments section of one of Marg's FB posts. Marg had come across a FB post by "Desiring God" featuring this article of theirs. The article is, IMO, fairly dopey, but it's probably not intended as a defense or promotion of complementarianism to egalitarians, but rather as a feel-good piece for those already of that viewpoint. FB posts on that topic, from either side, often bring push-back, and the Comments can feature some interesting exchanges. In the Comments on the DG post, there was a complementarian participant who claimed to be a pastor, and was an exemplar of how NOT to do civilized dialogue. In fact, he had no interest in dialogue. He was only interested in berating anyone who expressed an opinion contrary to that of the DG article writer. In his mind, anyone and everyone who disagreed had been corrupted by "Feminist Liberation Theology," and was unworthy of dialogue. In his mind, Marg is a well-known feminist and "apostate." (He never replied to my challenge to support the charge of apostasy.)

        Anyway, in the course of a discussion on Marg's FB page, Denny Burke's name came up, and a bit later, a reference to the above video. The person who mentioned it thought Ron cleaned Denny's clock. I don't agree. Having been around this debate for 20 years or so, I think Ron has the better argument, and did a good job, especially given the time constraints. But if I were new to the topic and had no opinion one way or the other, I think I'd have been left leaning slightly in Denny's direction.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #5
          I think everybody during their Christian walk have some of their beliefs transition. For example, when I was younger, I was Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Now I'm frankly not sure what my Eschatology is. I find myself more focused on if I die tomorrow, will I be ready?

          I think that's one reason we have to be careful about what we define as an essential of the faith. We have too many arguments over the non-essentials. I've learned to listen to both sides and see what truth is in each.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #6
            Regarding terminology, I rather Providentially came across this 8-year-old CBE "Priscilla Papers" article by Kevin Giles a day or so ago: The Genesis of Confusion: How “Complementarians” Have Corrupted Communication.

            He addresses long-time pet peeves of mine regarding the way advocates of authority hierarchy between the sexes define terms.

            In this essay, I move on to discuss four key terms—“role,” “equality,” “difference,” and “complementary”—which “complementarians” consistently utilize to give a different interpretation of Gen 1–3 and of other biblical texts important to their cause.


            Some here may object to the fact that he includes several references to Catholic teachings. I'm fine with including that perspective.

            Particularly galling to me, and challenging my ability to regard some of the preeminent advocates of the hierarchy view charitably, is his documentation that some of them -- Wayne Grudem in particular -- are either willfully and knowingly dishonest, or else so ignorant of what egalitarians actually believe and teach as to be unqualified to write in opposition.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment

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