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Not the Bee

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  • Not the Bee

    Not really sure whether this belongs here, in Civics, in Apologetics, or where.

    "Not the Bee" is the mutant cousin of the Babylon Bee. At least some of the same people run both sites. But the Bee, loath as some lefties are to admit it, is a satire and parody site. NtB is not. But NtB is also not a "straight" news site. It's kind of like a snarkier, Christianity-focused version of Daily Wire. I'm fine with that in general. I mostly like it for what it is.

    But even accepting the general premise, there are issues. One that annoys me is that they definitely view a particular interpretation as "the" Biblical version. Twice in less than two weeks they've revealed themselves to be Patriarchalist Provocateurs.

    One.

    Two.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

  • #2
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Not really sure whether this belongs here, in Civics, in Apologetics, or where.

    "Not the Bee" is the mutant cousin of the Babylon Bee. At least some of the same people run both sites. But the Bee, loath as some lefties are to admit it, is a satire and parody site. NtB is not. But NtB is also not a "straight" news site. It's kind of like a snarkier, Christianity-focused version of Daily Wire. I'm fine with that in general. I mostly like it for what it is.

    But even accepting the general premise, there are issues. One that annoys me is that they definitely view a particular interpretation as "the" Biblical version. Twice in less than two weeks they've revealed themselves to be Patriarchalist Provocateurs.

    One.

    Two.
    #1 is a clearly identified opinion piece, and invites debate. While the author does state a preferred stance, he makes no claim that his is the chiseled in stone correct evaluation (even if he privately believes it is).
    Women are told in Eph 5:22 to submit to their husband.
    Not quite, in the Koine text, they are told to submit themselves to their husbands, and whether it is a command or a request is line ball.




    #2 Yes, I think your reservations are justified
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #3
      The Bible is "patriarchal". In some part, this is cultural, as women were not educated. However, "wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord" doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room.

      Maybe check your own egos at the door?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        The Bible is "patriarchal". In some part, this is cultural, as women were not educated. However, "wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord" doesn't give a whole lot of wiggle room.

        Maybe check your own egos at the door?
        If the matter were as clear cut as some would have it on the basis of a scant few verses addressing the issue, I would be inclined to agree.
        The scriptural record is, however, somewhat ambiguous.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          #1 is a clearly identified opinion piece, and invites debate. While the author does state a preferred stance, he makes no claim that his is the chiseled in stone correct evaluation (even if he privately believes it is).
          Not quite, in the Koine text, they are told to submit themselves to their husbands, and whether it is a command or a request is line ball.




          #2 Yes, I think your reservations are justified
          It's annoying that one must be a paying subscriber to comment on articles. (Ok, I think you get one month free. I don't consider that that counts.) Yeah, they also post the articles to their Facebook page, but there is no real engagement there. Comments don't go much beyond "Yup!" and "Nuh-uh!"

          This was my reply on their FB page.


          Totally agree, Biblical illiteracy is tragic and shameful.

          Pathetic how few "Christians" realize that --

          -- The Creation Accounts clearly show full equality of man and woman, with no hierarchy or division of "roles," and the fact that the man needed a strong ally of like kind in order to properly fulfill his task of tending and guarding the orchard.

          -- There is no hierarchy until after the Fall, when the Curse and "might makes right" took hold.

          -- Life in Christ is a "new creation" with equality restored.

          -- The New Testament endorses patriarchy to the same extent as it endorses slavery -- which is to say it does not.

          -- The "household codes" passage in "Ephesians" begins at 5:21, not 5:22 (and definitely not 3:22!), and demands *mutual* submission.


          Obviously the opening is sarcastic, and the whole is highly condensed and not particularly nuanced. Last time I checked, it was just about the *only* reply that was not essentially giving a hearty "Amen!" to the article.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

            It's annoying that one must be a paying subscriber to comment on articles. (Ok, I think you get one month free. I don't consider that that counts.) Yeah, they also post the articles to their Facebook page, but there is no real engagement there. Comments don't go much beyond "Yup!" and "Nuh-uh!"

            This was my reply on their FB page.


            Totally agree, Biblical illiteracy is tragic and shameful.

            Pathetic how few "Christians" realize that --

            -- The Creation Accounts clearly show full equality of man and woman, with no hierarchy or division of "roles," and the fact that the man needed a strong ally of like kind in order to properly fulfill his task of tending and guarding the orchard.

            -- There is no hierarchy until after the Fall, when the Curse and "might makes right" took hold.

            -- Life in Christ is a "new creation" with equality restored.

            -- The New Testament endorses patriarchy to the same extent as it endorses slavery -- which is to say it does not.

            -- The "household codes" passage in "Ephesians" begins at 5:21, not 5:22 (and definitely not 3:22!), and demands *mutual* submission.


            Obviously the opening is sarcastic, and the whole is highly condensed and not particularly nuanced. Last time I checked, it was just about the *only* reply that was not essentially giving a hearty "Amen!" to the article.
            It is difficult to demonstrate. While I do accept that there is no differentiation between the genders,** and will say as much quite readily, I can also see enough evidence for the counter-argument to consider opinions either way as adiaphora. That is to say, they are in the "decide what is right for yourself, but don't try to impose that decision on others" category. There is no clear cut god-given directive.

            ** I have this thing about using English, rather than imposed PCglish.
            Last edited by tabibito; 08-27-2022, 07:28 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #7
              The verse just prior to Eph 5:22, Eph 5:21 says "“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

              I think it's pretty clear that Husbands are not to just order their wives around but to listen to them as well. That is part of loving them. Marriage is two becoming one. Not one becoming a slave to the other.

              Comment


              • #8
                This isn't the first site to take a stance on a theological issue, but when it's cloaked in satire, humor, and sarcasm, it comes across as all the stronger, so it'll elicit a stronger reaction out of people who disagree.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  It is difficult to demonstrate. While I do accept that there is no differentiation between the genders,** and will say as much quite readily, I can also see enough evidence for the counter-argument to consider opinions either way as adiaphora. That is to say, they are in the "decide what is right for yourself, but don't try to impose that decision on others" category. There is no clear cut god-given directive.

                  ** I have this thing about using English, rather than imposed PCglish.
                  I mostly agree. Certainly if you take isolated verses in particular translations, patriarchy appears normal and probably normative.

                  Here are some things that bother me about the so-called-complementarians-who-are-really-patriarchalists:

                  -- The arrogance of some, like the well-known preacher who, when asked about Beth Moore, derisively said she should "go home."

                  -- The nit-picky legalism of some, as described here. (PDF with original article here.)

                  -- The tendency of some to denounce women who disagree with their views as power-hungry Jezebels, and men who disagree with their views as weak girly-men who want to shirk responsibility.

                  -- The tendency of some to regard differences of interpretation as "twisting Scripture."

                  -- The tendency of some to "debate" by merely presenting an isolated Scripture reference with no context or explanation, and treating it as a "mic-drop" moment.

                  -- The tendency of some to insist that any who disagree with them are importing modern feminism into Scripture.

                  -- The "slippery slope" fear: Some are reluctant to even consider the arguments, because they believe the same ones might apply to homosexuality. (They really don't, at least in terms of materials coming from evangelical scholars such as those at Christians for Biblical Equality.)

                  -- The dismissive, "Well if they disagree, let them find another church."


                  I also have problems with some things on my side, the egalitarian-but-also-complementarian side:

                  -- Some authors get too bent out of shape over "John Wayne Christianity," and (probably unintentionally) end up suggesting that all masculinity is "toxic."

                  -- Some discussion participants are easily "triggered." They want "equality" for women, but if a man argues with them as he would with another man, they feel bullied.

                  -- Occasionally a discussion participant will turn out to be the proverbial unwelcome floater in the punch-bowl, an overly progressive, "affirming" sort who doesn't really understand or care about evangelical presuppositions about Scripture.


                  I was on the "patriarchal" side from roughly the early '80s to late '90s -- my early 20s to late 30s -- so I'm probably more sensitive to behaviors and attitudes I probably shared.


                  -----------------------

                  For a light-hearted offering, Marg Mowczko posted this on Facebook yesterday:

                  Ten Reasons Men Should Not Be Ordained as Ministers


                  10. A man’s place is in the army.

                  9. For men who have children, their duties might distract them from the responsibilities of being a parent.

                  8. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be “unnatural” for them to do other forms of work.

                  7. Man was created before woman. It is therefore obvious that man was a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation.

                  6. Men are too emotional to be priests or pastors. This is easily demonstrated by their conduct at football games and watching basketball tournaments.

                  5. Some men are handsome; they will distract women worshippers.

                  4. An ordained pastor is to nurture the congregation. But this is not a traditional male role. Rather, throughout history, women have been considered to be not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more frequently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination.

                  3. Men are overly prone to violence. No really manly man wants to settle disputes by any means other than by fighting about it. Thus, they would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in positions of leadership.

                  2. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can sweep paths, repair the church roof, and maybe even lead the singing on Father’s Day. By confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the Church.

                  1. In the New Testament account, the person who betrayed Jesus was a man. Thus, his lack of faith and ensuing punishment stands as a symbol of the subordinated position that all men should take.

                  (List originally compiled by the late Dr. David Scholer of Fuller Theological Seminary ca. 2005 or earlier.)
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post


                    -- The "slippery slope" fear: Some are reluctant to even consider the arguments, because they believe the same ones might apply to homosexuality. (They really don't, at least in terms of materials coming from evangelical scholars such as those at Christians for Biblical Equality.)
                    Scripturally, being a woman isn't listed as a sin. 'nuff said.

                    -- The dismissive, "Well if they disagree, let them find another church."
                    Basically, that is what is needed in matters of adiaphora. Of course, a lot hinges on the tone of voice when saying it.


                    -- Some discussion participants are easily "triggered." They want "equality" for women, but if a man argues with them as he would with another man, they feel bullied.
                    On the flip side, women who accept the subordinationist role tend to respond to a man's egalitarian argument with far more vitriol than do men. I never did understand why they think it is okay to "teach and correct" men.


                    -----------------------

                    For a light-hearted offering, Marg Mowczko posted this on Facebook yesterday:

                    Ten Reasons Men Should Not Be Ordained as Ministers


                    10. A man’s place is in the army.

                    9. For men who have children, their duties might distract them from the responsibilities of being a parent.

                    8. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be “unnatural” for them to do other forms of work.

                    7. Man was created before woman. It is therefore obvious that man was a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation.

                    6. Men are too emotional to be priests or pastors. This is easily demonstrated by their conduct at football games and watching basketball tournaments.

                    5. Some men are handsome; they will distract women worshippers.

                    4. An ordained pastor is to nurture the congregation. But this is not a traditional male role. Rather, throughout history, women have been considered to be not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more frequently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination.

                    3. Men are overly prone to violence. No really manly man wants to settle disputes by any means other than by fighting about it. Thus, they would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in positions of leadership.

                    2. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can sweep paths, repair the church roof, and maybe even lead the singing on Father’s Day. By confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the Church.

                    1. In the New Testament account, the person who betrayed Jesus was a man. Thus, his lack of faith and ensuing punishment stands as a symbol of the subordinated position that all men should take.

                    (List originally compiled by the late Dr. David Scholer of Fuller Theological Seminary ca. 2005 or earlier.)
                    Very nice. Wish I had thought of it.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment

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