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  • #31
    Originally posted by Esther View Post

    Ok how do you interpret the Eve part? Not trying to get clever btw. No matter the translation it is clear that the Eve part leads on from and is a valid reason for women not to have authority over men in the church? Yes I still see "in the church".
    The short answer: Like Linda Belleville and more recently Andrew Bartlett, I'm inclined to think it might be a quick correction of some of the content the woman was teaching.

    In more bloviating detail:

    There is a rather obvious problem with my view: It is not obvious from the text itself. We know from both Scripture and external history that Artemis worship was prevalent at Ephesus, where Timothy was stationed. We know from external sources, but not explicitly from Scripture, that *some* forms of Artemis worship included the idea that woman was created before man. We don't know for sure that form was extant in Ephesus, and the only sources that explicitly mention that form at all are external to Scripture. However, if true, it could, as Bartlett notes, also explain Paul's use of the rare word, "authenteo," and provide a thematic link to the "safe childbirth" bit (another potential Artemis reference) in v. 15.

    The "traditional" view has its own problems:

    -- It assumes "authenteo" means "have authority." If, as is likely, it means something more like, "domineer" or "control," then the traditional view, where Paul invokes the Creation narratives to universalize the instructions in vv. 11-12 would suggest it's ok for a man to control or domineer over women.

    -- It assumes "epitrepo" means "I do not (ever) permit" rather than "I am not (currently) permitting." Gordon Fee (in his 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus volume of the NIBC), Ben Witherington (in his Letters and Homilies for Helenized Christians, Volume 1) and especially Payne (in his Man and Woman, One in Christ) argue for the latter, and that the grammar indicates Paul was specifically addressing the prohibition to a problem at that time and place.

    -- It assumes the Creation Accounts self-evidently teach that Eve was subordinate to Adam. But that was not the case until they were fallen and redemption was thousands of years in the future. In Gen. 1, they are presented as equals, both of whom are to together "rule" the rest of Creation, not one of them over the other. In Gen. 2, Adam is created first, then Eve as his needed "ezer." Nothing about the word or the context suggests subordinance. In most of the places it occurs in Scripture, it refers to an ally, typically military, of comparable or greater power, often God Himself. There is no obvious hierarchy between husband and wife until Gen. 3:16.

    Some claim that the act of "naming" is a demonstration of authority. That may or may not be the case. It is not explicit (and IMO not even implicit) in Gen. 1-2; plus some Bibles note in footnotes that Adam did not directly "name" Eve until 3:20, after the Fall, when he was already explicitly in a position of dominance.

    In any case, Paul did not refer to "naming," but only to sequence. Nothing about being created earlier automatically entails higher authority, or fish and birds and bats and bugs and bears would have authority over humans. Some like to say that we know the creation of male prior to female gives authority to the male because Paul said so; but that's circular reasoning, or begging the question... I tend to get those two confused. Paul does not say that. He merely states the fact that man preceded woman.

    Some like to claim that 2:14 shows that women should not teach men, because women are more easily deceived. But Paul does not say that. He says that *Eve* was deceived. Rather than saying "All women are like Eve," he was probably saying "Be careful not to become like Eve." If his point were that all women are easily deceived, then the natural corollary would be that men are better teachers because like Adam, they are not deceived, but willfully and knowingly reject the truth in favor of Satan's lies; that's wacky. Further, if women are by nature "easily deceived," they should not be allowed to teach *anyone*. Men would actually be in *less* danger from their false teaching than would other women.

    Ha ha I hope you are joking? Real life is a busy business!
    Alas, not joking.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

      The short answer: Like Linda Belleville and more recently Andrew Bartlett, I'm inclined to think it might be a quick correction of some of the content the woman was teaching.

      In more bloviating detail:

      There is a rather obvious problem with my view: It is not obvious from the text itself. We know from both Scripture and external history that Artemis worship was prevalent at Ephesus, where Timothy was stationed. We know from external sources, but not explicitly from Scripture, that *some* forms of Artemis worship included the idea that woman was created before man. We don't know for sure that form was extant in Ephesus, and the only sources that explicitly mention that form at all are external to Scripture. However, if true, it could, as Bartlett notes, also explain Paul's use of the rare word, "authenteo," and provide a thematic link to the "safe childbirth" bit (another potential Artemis reference) in v. 15.

      The "traditional" view has its own problems:

      -- It assumes "authenteo" means "have authority." If, as is likely, it means something more like, "domineer" or "control," then the traditional view, where Paul invokes the Creation narratives to universalize the instructions in vv. 11-12 would suggest it's ok for a man to control or domineer over women.
      It is possible that Paul was addressing a problem with women attempting to wrest control. "I do not permit a woman to assume authority ..."

      http://www.greekdoc.com/bible/lexicon/auq.html#auqentas
      αὐθεντ (αὐθεντέω)
      • Parse: Verb: Pres Act Ind/Subj 1st Sing
      • Meaning: to domineer, act of oneself, dominate, usurp authority over
      • Forms:
        • αὐθεντεῖν Verb: Pres Act Infin

      Greekdoc provides, in my opinion, the best Koine Greek/English lexicon that I have found. That is not to say that it gives definitions and explanations that won't be found elsewhere, just that it is singular in its organisation, provides direct definitions with parsing for conjugations and declensions (you can find the word as it is used - there is no need to work out what the root word is), and has little (there is some on rare occasion) by way of theologically driven spin in its entries. It is also something that couldn't be done in a book. My own lexicon-in-development has more than 7000 entries, with at a guess only 1200 or so head-words (partially) included.



      It assumes "epitrepo" means "I do not (ever) permit" rather than "I am not (currently) permitting." Gordon Fee (in his 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus volume of the NIBC), Ben Witherington (in his Letters and Homilies for Helenized Christians, Volume 1) and especially Payne (in his Man and Woman, One in Christ) argue for the latter, and that the grammar indicates Paul was specifically addressing the prohibition to a problem at that time and place.
      "Simple present" and "present imperfect" do share the same forms - but too much can be made of the distinction. "I am not permitting" is a valid rendering/understanding, but "I am not currently permitting" overstates the circumstances. More to the point, in the passage under review, the word is αυθεντειν, present active infinitive: "to assume authority" (or to have authority), to dominate.


      It assumes the Creation Accounts self-evidently teach that Eve was subordinate to Adam. But that was not the case until they were fallen and redemption was thousands of years in the future. In Gen. 1, they are presented as equals, both of whom are to together "rule" the rest of Creation, not one of them over the other. In Gen. 2, Adam is created first, then Eve as his needed "ezer." Nothing about the word or the context suggests subordinance. In most of the places it occurs in Scripture, it refers to an ally, typically military, of comparable or greater power, often God Himself. There is no obvious hierarchy between husband and wife until Gen. 3:16.
      agreed

      Some like to claim that 2:14 shows that women should not teach men, because women are more easily deceived. But Paul does not say that. He says that *Eve* was deceived. Rather than saying "All women are like Eve," he was probably saying "Be careful not to become like Eve."
      Also agreed.

      If his point were that all women are easily deceived, then the natural corollary would be that men are better teachers because like Adam, they are not deceived, but willfully and knowingly reject the truth in favor of Satan's lies; that's wacky. Further, if women are by nature "easily deceived," they should not be allowed to teach *anyone*. Men would actually be in *less* danger from their false teaching than would other women.
      Using valid logic? How daring.
      Next you'll be pointing out that IF "I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ," means that the man is in authority over the woman, then God is in authority over Christ; resulting in a major headache for the concept of co-equality among the members of the Trinity.
      Last edited by tabibito; 04-20-2022, 04:32 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

        "Glow-ruh be ta Gawd!"
        )

        Funny!

        The Bible, in any translation (except imo for The Message and the Passion translations) is so concise and clear in many reading for comprehension ways. It sometimes takes mankind pages to explain what the Bible says in one verse.

        This discussion about Eve for example here.

        The New Testament is so full and easy to understand and the things I don't understand do not impede me and are not salvation issues. I just read them again when I come back to them.

        I am noticing that Biblical scholars often go to lengths to explain why the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Esther View Post
          )

          I am noticing that Biblical scholars often go to lengths to explain why the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
          It is a sad fact. Even sadder when you realise that the translators only go not quite as far along the same paths.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #35
            I'd like to thank the thread participants for mostly keeping this discussion polite so far. Experience shows that this is a topic that can quickly degenerate into questioning of motives and accusations of dishonesty, and general snark and ill-will, and I admittedly can be quick to hop onto that train.

            Originally posted by Esther View Post
            )

            The Bible, in any translation (except imo for The Message and the Passion translations) is so concise and clear in many reading for comprehension ways. It sometimes takes mankind pages to explain what the Bible says in one verse.

            This discussion about Eve for example here.

            The New Testament is so full and easy to understand and the things I don't understand do not impede me and are not salvation issues. I just read them again when I come back to them.

            I am noticing that Biblical scholars often go to lengths to explain why the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
            Conceptually, I'd like to be able to agree with you. I've spent a lot of my time as a believer around people with the ideas, "The main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things. God means what He says and says what He means." Plus the fact that the NT was written in Koine Greek, which was as close to a "universal" language as was possible at that time, suggests God wanted it to be understandable to basically anyone. But in reality, it's not that simple, even in regard to salvation.

            -- The "one verse" of 1 Tim. 2:4 suggests universal salvation.

            -- The "one verse" of Rev. 21:8 (KJV and a few others) condemns to the Lake of Fire people with phobias or anxiety disorders.


            Yes, of course those are carefully cherry-picked examples and translations. But the basic point holds.

            For the one-verse complementarian, the single verse of 1 Tim. 2:12 in most English translations completely prohibits women from teaching men, or from holding positions of authority over men.

            For the one-verse egalitarian, the single verse of Gal. 3:28 removes any and all distinctions.

            Neither of those single-verse interpretations is tenable in light of the whole of Scripture.

            I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by your remark about the two verses about Eve. You speak as though it were self-evidently obvious that Paul was affirming the authority of Adam over Eve. But Paul does not actually say that, and if that was his intent, he was imposing a meaning not supported by the first two chapters of Genesis themselves. Or more precisely, there is virtually no translation where the first chapter of Genesis supports that. In the second chapter, about half of translations render "ezer" as "helper," which is technically correct, but which anglophones tend to hear with a sense of subordinance which is not inherent in the word, and is inconsistent with the way the word is normally used in the OT. Yes, that is using a lot of words to explain something, but it's necessary. If one uses, e.g., the NET or ISV or NAB (not NASB) or CEV, one will see instead "partner" or "companion," which are closer to the way the word is used elsewhere.

            So of course, the "easy" path is to just pick one translation like the ESV or NKJV or NASB, and then pick one or two passages one deems "clear" (e.g. 1 Tim. 2:11-14, 1 Cor. 14:34-35), and force all other passages to line up with them.

            And of course, regarding your comment about "Biblical scholars," the comment works for scholars in both directions. Some of us believe that complementarian scholars go to some lengths to explain away passages we see as clearly affirming equality of authority in home and church for men and women.



            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            It is a sad fact. Even sadder when you realise that the translators only go not quite as far along the same paths.
            The ESV comes to mind.

            It's bad enough when you have sincere differences of opinion by people on the "same side" -- e.g. the importance or lack thereof of the tense of "epitrepo" in 1 Tim. 2:12, or whether "one-woman man" in 3:2 is intended to be gender-inclusive, and the extent to which that matters. (These cases come to mind because in the former, Witherington agrees with Payne that the "I am not currently permitting" sense is correct, but in the latter, AFAIK is not persuaded that the figure of speech can apply to both men and women as Payne contends; or at least that the absence of male nouns and pronouns in 1 Tim. 3 outside of that word is important.)

            It's really disappointing when someone puts a lot of time and effort into presenting a case, then the interlocutor basically says, "Meh, not convincing," and just waves it away. I saw an online exchange like that involving the late Suzanne McCarthy a while back, but the details and the identity of her debate opponent have long since fled my brain.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Comment


            • #36
              I should note that the sum total of my classroom training in foreign or ancient languages comprises two years of high school Latin. So I can understand most of the linguistic arguments, but can't evaluate their strengths.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                I should note that the sum total of my classroom training in foreign or ancient languages comprises two years of high school Latin. So I can understand most of the linguistic arguments, but can't evaluate their strengths.
                The weaknesses of an argument are much easier to identify - where an infinitive verb (or subjunctive, passive etc) is explained solely in terms of its lexical form (nominative active indicative first person singular) the explanation (rule of thumb) is glossing over something.

                Just as a BTW - The Word is free, and has a very good free download of the Byzantine Majority Text (it does have pay modules as well). Mouse over any word in select translations and it will give the lexical word in Koine Greek. Mouse over any word in the BMT and it will give you the parsing information.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #38
                  SG 1 Tim 2 12 Byz.jpg

                  SG 1 Tim 2 12 NASB.jpg

                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Esther View Post
                    )
                    I am noticing that Biblical scholars often go to lengths to explain why the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
                    I agree also. I've sat through several teachings where the pastor tries to convince you the verse really doesn't mean what it appears to mean.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                      I agree also. I've sat through several teachings where the pastor tries to convince you the verse really doesn't mean what it appears to mean.
                      Yes and the message it sends is that the ordinary man on the street is unable to simply pick up any Bible anywhere, and read with good understanding what God has to say for themselves.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I can read a whole chapter with good understanding in the Bible in the time it would take me to read this screen shot.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Esther View Post

                          I can read a whole chapter with good understanding in the Bible in the time it would take me to read this screen shot.
                          Provided that there were no translation errors, I would be inclined to agree. Quite a few problems arise from translators' failures to preserve verb tense or noun case.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 04-25-2022, 08:56 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment

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