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One on one thread about Christian theocracy?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Another thing is that in many cases, trying to find legislative solutions may not be the most effective use of time. With the example of abortion, evangelicals and Catholics have been working for decades to find a way to overturn Roe v Wade with absolutely no progress.
    There was no Roe vs Wade when churches had more political influence and heads of state drew their power from God, even when it was a farce. Let's face it, the removal of the church from politics has granted us the abortion holocaust, which alone is worse than anything the church ever did. At least with corrupt churches and divine rights of kings the leaders still have to pay attention to Christian ideals or risk getting erased by opportunistic political opponents or angry mobs.

    However, many have also been reaching out to people on an individual level who are struggling with these issues (people considering or recovering from abortion), and progress very much has been made with improving these individual people's lives. Without abandoning political action altogether, I suspect more of us need to concentrate on what we can individually do rather than trying to play a game that may or may not have any prospects of victory.
    If every Christian thought like I do we'd have victory overnight. One need not give up on the ideal to focus on small, immediate improvements.
    Last edited by Darth Executor; 03-14-2014, 01:26 PM.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Andius View Post
      Mmhhh, are you sure that you have actually examined conclusively of how theocracies turn out? Are you sure that such a thing is inevitable?
      I view the corruption of governments as more or less inevitable; I don't at all view this as tied in any way to theocracies. (It even happened to King Solomon, the wisest of religious men.) When things do turn out for the worse, I would rather not have the stain of the church on it.

      But it's important to differentiate between ruling according to Christian principles and strictly enforcing one's interpretation of Christianity. So perhaps it is at the least best to keep some distance between ecclesiastical bodies and ruling bodies (contra the example of various churches during much of European history, most notably but not limited to the RCC).

      And of course I cannot speak for every historical example that has ever happened, only to tendencies I have noticed from what I am familiar with.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        There was no Roe vs Wade when churches had more political influence and heads of state drew their power from God, even when it was a farce. Let's face it, the removal of the church from politics has granted us the abortion holocaust, which alone is worse than anything the church ever did. At least with corrupt churches and divine rights of things the leaders still have to pay attention to Christian ideals or risk getting erased by opportunistic political opponents or angry mobs.
        I'm not unsympathetic to this line of argumentation though I wonder if it would have thoroughly prevented it altogether. Not all Christian denominations even then had an issue with abortion; not even the Southern Baptists, and I'm not sure how firmly the line would have been held.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I'm not unsympathetic to this line of argumentation though I wonder if it would have thoroughly prevented it altogether. Not all Christian denominations even then had an issue with abortion; not even the Southern Baptists, and I'm not sure how firmly the line would have been held.
          Well, Roe vs Wade was just one step in a trend that started well before that. Ideally it never would've gotten to that point.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I view the corruption of governments as more or less inevitable; I don't at all view this as tied in any way to theocracies. (It even happened to King Solomon, the wisest of religious men.) When things do turn out for the worse, I would rather not have the stain of the church on it.
            Ah, well, it be an attitude I myself share. I don't consider States inherently good organizations in the first place. I do find it good that you are awares that it's crookedness is not tied to theocratic organization (good example by the way). But I too also agree, when disaster hits in State management, it be best if the Church be not part of the blame.

            But it's important to differentiate between ruling according to Christian principles and strictly enforcing one's interpretation of Christianity. So perhaps it is at the least best to keep some distance between ecclesiastical bodies and ruling bodies (contra the example of various churches during much of European history, most notably but not limited to the RCC).
            And a very good differentiation indeed. In praxis, it is a prudent thing to maintain such a distance, lest the disasters that plagued Europeans in the past repeat themselves. Keep in mind however that some Christians will not exactly be content with a government that continues to destroy peoples lives, and let me give you an example;

            Amongst the Christians of Honduras (of primarily Protestant congregations) there is a growing attitude that views the "Secular Progressives" in abysmally falling short in their promise to end the injustices that plague the country (Especially in the area of Organized Crime and Unemployment, THE biggest problems of the moment). They are committed to the belief that if they as a Church do not do something about it, justice will never come, and it has fueled a growing civic participation unlike I have ever seen before, and it's all grassroots movements originating in Church and their teachings in social justice.

            The current president, Juan Orlando Hernández, has the support of such folk (and naturally, fought for a long time to give religious organizations tax exemption, so naturally, you can see the tit for tat relation here, common interests and all), and he has a fairly clean track record for a politician, and a confessing Christian. Time will tell if he maintains a fairly just praxis in his presidency.

            And of course I cannot speak for every historical example that has ever happened, only to tendencies I have noticed from what I am familiar with.
            Fair enough. Well, if you want to see a relatively good example, I strongly recommend reading the history of the Iberian Kingdoms of the Middle ages. Prior to the renaissance, some Christian Iberian kings had the reputation of integrating Jews and Muslims in their courts, and accepting them as vassals without resorting to conversion (paying the tribute sufficed). Muslim, Jew, Christian coexisted peacefully in varied fashions in the dominions of the Iberia, even during war times when Christian and Muslim lords and kings fought for control of the Peninsula. It is most fascinating history (a history whom I tend to view as my cultural forerunners, naturally being a descendant of them), and by my reckoning, a fairly good testament on how theocratic or theocratically leaning dominions can still exercise tolerance of creeds alien to the official one.
            Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
            As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

            "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

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