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Isaiah 7:14: Young woman or Virgin?

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  • Isaiah 7:14: Young woman or Virgin?

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

    Some say the verse should read "young woman" instead of "virgin.'

    Which one is the most accurate and why is it the most accurate?

    Thank you.


  • #2
    Young woman is the literal translation but in a society like that in Judea, it might be assumed that she would be a virgin, hence virgin would also be correct. .

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Young woman is the literal translation but in a society like that in Judea, it might be assumed that she would be a virgin, hence virgin would also be correct. .
      And who was that woman?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

        Some say the verse should read "young woman" instead of "virgin.'

        Which one is the most accurate and why is it the most accurate?

        Thank you.
        Simple enough - the pregnancy is a sign from God. The verse does not say "the young woman is pregnant and this will be a sign to you."

        "This shall be a sign to you; the young woman will conceive"

        7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.‎
        therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: the maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel.

        harah, translated above as "is with child" is the qal imperfect conjugation of hareh, so should properly be translated as a future tense (as most Bible versions do): qv

        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Simple enough - the pregnancy is a sign from God. The verse does not say "the young woman is pregnant and this will be a sign to you."

          "This shall be a sign to you; the young woman will conceive"

          7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.‎
          therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: the maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel.

          harah, translated above as "is with child" is the qal imperfect conjugation of hareh, so should properly be translated as a future tense (as most Bible versions do): qv

          This is the Jewish interpretation with Rashi's comments:
          the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.
          is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”
          the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.
          and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her.
          Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

            This is the Jewish interpretation with Rashi's comments:
            the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign: He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.
            is with child: This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”
            the young woman: My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.
            and she shall call his name: Divine inspiration will rest upon her.
            Immanuel: [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.
            So then - was the pregnancy a sign from God according to Rashi's account? Or was it the to-be-expected outcome of swyving?
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              So then - was the pregnancy a sign from God according to Rashi's account? Or was it the to-be-expected outcome of swyving?
              Yes, a sign from God.

              Got Questions has something on this:

              https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-or-young-woman.html

              Clip: Therefore, Isaiah 7:14 should be understood as being a “double prophecy,” referring primarily to the situation King Ahaz was facing, but secondarily to the coming Messiah who would be the ultimate deliverer.


              Comment


              • #8
                https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-or-young-woman.html
                However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.”


                False. Parthenos does not necessarily mean "maiden/young+virgin+woman;" it can apply to a virgin male, and to a virtuous young woman without regard to virginity.





                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-or-young-woman.html
                  However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.”


                  False. Parthenos does not necessarily mean "maiden/young+virgin+woman;" it can apply to a virgin male, and to a virtuous young woman without regard to virginity.




                  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexi...33/kjv/tr/0-1/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So then - I agree with Vine on the bulk of his entry - with a little extra provided by BDAG, LSJ, and TDNT, as well as a study of usage patterns.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-or-young-woman.html
                      However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.”


                      False. Parthenos does not necessarily mean "maiden/young+virgin+woman;" it can apply to a virgin male, and to a virtuous young woman without regard to virginity.

                      Don't know the veracity of the claim, but I've heard it can also mean the constellation Virgo.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Don't know the veracity of the claim, but I've heard it can also mean the constellation Virgo.
                        It is not a claim that I have previously encountered - and I can't trace a link between Virgo and parthenos. Virgo is associated with goddesses Dike (justice) and Persephone (harvest) ... no Nike (victory) isn't in the picture. Also - Virgo seems to be associated with Astraea: the virgin goddess of justice, purity, innocence, and precision.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It wouldn't be much of a sign if it just meant an ordinary young woman got pregnant, would it? That happens all the time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Don't know the veracity of the claim, but I've heard it can also mean the constellation Virgo.
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            It is not a claim that I have previously encountered - and I can't trace a link between Virgo and parthenos. Virgo is associated with goddesses Dike (justice) and Persephone (harvest) ... no Nike (victory) isn't in the picture. Also - Virgo seems to be associated with Astraea: the virgin goddess of justice, purity, innocence, and precision.


                            I probably should have looked, since for the first definition in the very first entry (Wikipedia):

                            dc43d972-6026-4066-b0c4-2a2ea2c621f8.jpg

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              [/INDENT]


                              I probably should have looked, since for the first definition in the very first entry (Wikipedia):

                              dc43d972-6026-4066-b0c4-2a2ea2c621f8.jpg
                              I saw that - the links don't go anywhere. As near as I can tell, the cross connection is a (relatively) modern introduction through astrology. But again - I can't trace anything definitive.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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