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Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

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  • #46
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I agree with you that the immediate context does seem to refer more to these types of people (false teachers in general), but the reason I still see it as connected with perseverance in general is because John seems to link it to an initial state of belonging to Christ, and he (at least according to my attempt to read it at face value) seems to say this as a general statement and not merely limited to the context of false teachers.
    Firstly, you have to realize that the verse does not say:

    'they were never of us' rather they 'were not of us' at they time 'they went out from us'



    Secondly, you also must realize that 'from us' could either mean:

    (a) they heard the initial teaching of the apostles but did their own thing
    (b) they were actual believers who at some point apostasized to do their own thing



    Thirdly, I can see why it is tempting to think that John is pulling a general statement regarding salvation to back up his argument. However, we must ask ourselves:

    (1) where is the idea of an initial state of belonging to Christ brought into the idea here
    (2) how would a general principle of salvation (in this case: once saved, always saved) actually work within John's point?
    (3) also...could it be that John is brining in another general principle to make his point....one that doesn't have to do with salvation?

    #2 is the big one. Because if that principle is what John is bringing in to make his point, the text doesn't make sense when we paraphrase it that way:

    18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 [They might have looked like they were saved, but they really weren't; if they were really saved, they would still be saved. In fact they weren't saved, that it might become plain that they all are not saved]. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
    In other words, brining in a general principle about 'once saved, always saved' doesn't comport with the text. Rather, John is making a point, not about salvation, but rather about one way in which they might spot the antichrists and false teachers. In fact, 1 John has a lot of these principles throughout the text as a whole.

    Now if we paraphrase it the way it should be read (IMO), it does make sense:

    18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19[They might have come out from us, but they weren't part of our group. For if they actually had been true apostles, they would have kept fellowship. Rather, they broke fellowship and went off on their own so that there would be no doubt in your mind that they are ALL teachers of a false gospel]. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.


    It is important that all three of these areas are places where we automatically assume a meaning without digging further into the text. As always, we need to ask 'how does my interpretation of this text actually work within the text itself? How does it work within the author's original intent?'
    Last edited by phat8594; 03-13-2014, 12:56 PM.

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    • #47
      I have recently become convinced that 1 John 2:19 completely overthrows Arminianism.
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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      • #48
        "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us," -- 1 John 2:19.


        Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
        First off, the context of this verse is not dealing with salvation, but with antichrists / false teachers.
        Explain what you mean and how anti-christs and false teachers can be saved, if it "is not dealing with salvation" "if they had been of us?"
        Last edited by 37818; 03-13-2014, 02:17 PM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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        • #49
          Jesus had warned, " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; . . ." And then cites how they are trusting in "have we not . . . in thy name done many wonderful works?" For which Jesus says He will profess, " I never knew you: . . . ." -- from Matthew 7:21-23.

          Now Jesus also taught, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, . . ." and "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." -- from John 10:27, 28. And the "any" is understood by me to include one's self. v.28-30 shows that God does the keeping.
          Last edited by 37818; 03-13-2014, 02:26 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Did you read the rest of my post? I freely acknowledged that God works in us. However, that does not make the first verse of no import.

            Again, you seem to have missed the rest of my post. A fuller translation would be, "For by grace you are being saved/have been saved/will be saved. . ." (perfect tense). Salvation is not a point - it is a process.

            What does that have to do with how James is interpreted?
            Your view, I think was well stated. And is well stated. It is my view, that "works" is to be the result of being saved, not a requirement in order to. see Romans 4:5, a parallel teaching on this. I referenced Ephesians 2:10.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              One Bad Pig believes in salvation by works. Do you really think he would agree with the theory that it is difficult to lose salvation? SeanD sure didn't make it sound very difficult to lose. My point is that you can potentially read the Bible to teach that salvation is impossible to lose, or that it is fairly easy to lose. To claim that it is possible, but extremely difficult, seems like a terribly unrealistic view. It is a view based more on philosophy ("How can God take away my freedom to prevent me from going to hell if I really want to?") as opposed to scripture.
              Was the big 'IF' in front of the premise too confusing for you? The premise is based on the possibility found in Scripture, based on one's understanding of the relevant passages, not on philosophy. It is a reasonable reading - that doesn't make it a correct reading. I lean away from the 'losing salvation' idea as it seems to me to conflict with some of what Christ Himself taught about salvation. However, I cannot make an airtight case for its impossibility - so it would be silly not to consider the possibility at all. Given the assurances about salvation, it is irrational to assume that if it can actually be lost that doing so would be an easy, let alone inadvertent, thing to do.

              Mentioning that OBP cited something isn't the same thing as agreeing with his entire theology - which you misrepresent, by the way. I happen to disagree with him on that point - but he isn't arguing for salvation by works. Pay attention, please.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by phat
                18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19[They might have come out from us, but they weren't part of our group. For if they actually had been true apostles, they would have kept fellowship. Rather, they broke fellowship and went off on their own so that there would be no doubt in your mind that they are ALL teachers of a false gospel]. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
                This is a reasonable interpretation.

                However, I think it is quite possible that the antichrists never broke fellowship at all. John may be saying that the antichrists left Jerusalem (or wherever John and the apostles were) and claimed to be sent by the apostles. But they were lying, because their doctrine did not abide in the truth.

                1 John 2
                18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
                20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


                I think it could reasonably be argued that throughout the book, the "we" always applies to the apostles and the "ye" always applies to the children. Obviously, many of the truths about the apostles could also apply to the children by implication.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Your view, I think was well stated. And is well stated. It is my view, that "works" is to be the result of being saved, not a requirement in order to.
                  IMO works are necessary, but not dispositive, evidence of our being saved. Our works do not save, per se; it is the faith that drives our works which does. On the other hand, faith which does not produce works is empty and vain.
                  see Romans 4:5, a parallel teaching on this. I referenced Ephesians 2:10.
                  Yes, those are quite appropriate.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    IMO works are necessary, but not dispositive, evidence of our being saved. Our works do not save, per se; it is the faith that drives our works which does. On the other hand, faith which does not produce works is empty and vain.

                    ....
                    Okay, so maybe I don't disagree... I probably misread something earlier - I definitely agree with the above.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Okay, so maybe I don't disagree... I probably misread something earlier - I definitely agree with the above.
                      I do disagree. It is my understanding that works and grace are mutually exclusive. ". . . if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -- Romans 11:6.



                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      IMO works are necessary, but not dispositive, evidence of our being saved. Our works do not save, per se; it is the faith that drives our works which does. On the other hand, faith which does not produce works is empty and vain.
                      [Emphases added]
                      It is my understanding that where "works" are taught to be any kind of requirement in order to be saved, it is a counterfeit gospel. ". . . Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:9.
                      Last edited by 37818; 03-14-2014, 11:05 AM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        James 2:12 specifically says that people are judged based on the law. So if you want to read James 2 as teaching people how to get to heaven (the subject of this thread), then heaven is clearly merited by works. However, James does not claim to be discussing how to get to heaven.

                        I don't believe that you can honestly read James to teach that faith inevitably produces works. In fact, he explicitly teaches the opposite -- that you can have a "dead" faith that lacks works.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          I do disagree. It is my understanding that works and grace are mutually exclusive. ". . . if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -- Romans 11:6.



                          [Emphases added]
                          It is my understanding that where "works" are taught to be any kind of requirement in order to be saved, it is a counterfeit gospel. ". . . Not of works, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:9.
                          It looks like you misunderstood my post. "Which does" refers back to "faith," not "works."
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            I don't believe that you can honestly read James to teach that faith inevitably produces works. In fact, he explicitly teaches the opposite -- that you can have a "dead" faith that lacks works.
                            The implication of this would be that such a "faith" would not be a genuine faith.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              James 2:12 specifically says that people are judged based on the law.
                              No, it doesn't. It says we should act as if we are.
                              So if you want to read James 2 as teaching people how to get to heaven (the subject of this thread), then heaven is clearly merited by works. However, James does not claim to be discussing how to get to heaven.
                              Is James 2:14 missing from your Bible?
                              I don't believe that you can honestly read James to teach that faith inevitably produces works. In fact, he explicitly teaches the opposite -- that you can have a "dead" faith that lacks works.
                              Faith which is not dead inevitably produces works. Is that so hard to understand?
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The reason I accepted Christ, was on the premise one can know for sure. If one cannot, then Christianity is no different in the end than any other religion.
                                It appears this thread has completely derailed from the opening post.
                                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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